Police shoot 'dead' a suspect, London...

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Wow, at LEAST 16 weeks? I dont know about police training in pommieland, but once again, I'm glad of where I was born. Perhaps if I was raised and lived my entire life in the US, I'd feel differently, but as it stands, sometimes you guys say things which make absolutely no sense to me at all.

I'm with A_W. Lets wait for some explanations before vilifying, or putting these policemen up on pedestals. We dont know what happened.
 
Angela Harlem said:

I'm with A_W. Lets wait for some explanations before vilifying, or putting these policemen up on pedestals. We dont know what happened.

It's the only sensible way forward really.
 
r1936308787.jpg



kind of looks like a white guy


he may have even been a christian


maybe we should be more upset
 
Angela Harlem said:
Wow, at LEAST 16 weeks? I dont know about police training in pommieland, but once again, I'm glad of where I was born. Perhaps if I was raised and lived my entire life in the US, I'd feel differently, but as it stands, sometimes you guys say things which make absolutely no sense to me at all.

I don't know what you're talking about.

But I misspoke. At the police department for which I worked, it was 16 weeks academy, and then 4 months on-the-job field training with a training officer. That's pretty standard for most departments.
 
Sorry, again I forgot that simply due to complacency with familiarity with locations, things cant always be clear.

16 weeks just seems like a very short time to get trained as a police officer. It's only 4 months, and then another 4 under a more senior officer. I only go by comparisons, which are perhaps unwise, but here it's nearly a year at the academy which is is a live-in campus, and then you spend the following year as a probationary officer and follow a more senior officer around in their job. There was even talk, which I'm not sure but think it did eventuate, of prospective officers needing to be post graduate from university to even apply.
 
The officers were part of Scotland Yard's specialist firearms unit (SO19), who I imagine had more than the minimium amount of training. What I really don't understand is why they let him get on the bus if they thought he was carrying an explosive. :confused:
 
meegannie said:
The officers were part of Scotland Yard's specialist firearms unit (SO19), who I imagine had more than the minimium amount of training. What I really don't understand is why they let him get on the bus if they thought he was carrying an explosive. :confused:

I agree, armed police officers will have had considerably more than sixteen weeks training.

But they tried to stop him boarding a train - he was followed after leaving a property the police had under surveillance, he then went into a tube station at which point the police asked him to stop. He ignored them, jumped over a barrier and ran down a flight of stairs or escalator and boarded the train. Presumably the police did try to catch him since eye-witnesses report police officers chasing the man, but evidently they were unable to prevent him boarding the train.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:


But they tried to stop him boarding a train - he was followed after leaving a property the police had under surveillance, he then went into a tube station at which point the police asked him to stop. He ignored them, jumped over a barrier and ran down a flight of stairs or escalator and boarded the train. Presumably the police did try to catch him since eye-witnesses report police officers chasing the man, but evidently they were unable to prevent him boarding the train.

From what I've read, though, the police followed him out of the flat as he caught a bus to the underground station. So they thought he had explosives and were happy to let him get on a bus full of people? :confused:

It's now looking like his visa had expired, so that may help to explain why he ran from the police at the tube station.
 
American Skin (41 Shots), by Bruce Springsteen


41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots....
and we'll take that ride
'cross this bloody river
to the other side
41 shots... cut through the night
You're kneeling over his body in the vestibule
Praying for his life

Is it a gun, is it a knife
Is it a wallet, this is your life
It ain't no secret
It ain't no secret
No secret my friend
You can get killed just for living
In your American skin

41 shots
Lena gets her son ready for school
She says "on these streets, Charles
You've got to understand the rules
If an officer stops you
Promise me you'll always be polite,
that you'll never ever run away
Promise Mama you'll keep your hands in sight"

Is it a gun, is it a knife
Is it a wallet, this is your life
It ain't no secret
It ain't no secret
No secret my friend
You can get killed just for living
In your American skin

Is it a gun, is it a knife
Is it in your heart, is it in your eyes
It ain't no secret

41 shots... and we'll take that ride
'Cross this bloody river
To the other side
41 shots... got my boots caked in this mud
We're baptized in these waters and in each other's blood

Is it a gun, is it a knife
Is it a wallet, this is your life
It ain't no secret
It ain't no secret
No secret my friend
You can get killed just for living
In your American skin
 
I've been looking this up on the internet and, whilst the exact number of weeks of training at each stage seems to vary between regional forces (so the metropolitian police training might be slightly longer than say, Humberside police), in England and Wales to become a fully qualified police constable (who would be unarmed and not eligable to carry a firearm) it takes two years (a mixture of training courses and probationary periods if you want details: http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/default.asp?action=article&ID=358). So it's the same as in Australia.

Once probationary training is complete they can apply to join a firearms unit (the metropolitian police's fire arms unit is called SO19 as meeganie said). The SO19 training is here: http://www.met.police.uk/so19/training.htm and it seems to take about 5 weeks with 3 days training every six weeks when assigned to an Armed response unit.

I don't know if any of that's any use to anybody but people were talking about training. I just hope what I've said is actually right! There seems to some differences between regions and as for Scotland and NI training, I didn't even look, but in NI all(?) officiers are armed so I wonder how long they have to train? Anyway, if any of it's wrong then it was an honest mistake and I apologise.

Back on the subject, it does seem to me that training is extensive and agree with Angela Harlem and A_Wanderer, let's wait for the inquiry over this tragic event because, let's be honest, we don't know the full picture yet.

And Anitram, I heard that the family are considering suing the metropolitian police over this (according to the victim's cousin).
 
MadelynIris said:
jeez guys. Put yourself in the officer's shoes for just one minute and you make the call.

easy place to go for you?


is it hard to go in the completely innocent victim's place?

what if it was your wife? brother? child?
 
deep said:
is it hard to go in the completely innocent victim's place?

Completely innocent?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.
 
Axver said:


Completely innocent?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.

Completely innocent of any terrorist offences though. It sounds increasingly likely that he'd stayed in this country after his visa expired and so ran from the police in fear of being reported to the asylum and immigration services if he was caught.
 
Why did he run from armed officers though? I wonder if maybe his English wasn't so good or something and he panicked.

It is tragic - both for his family and the officers involved who must have been under a lot of pressure.
 
Reality check, anyone?

From our official news: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
Witnesses report seeing up to 20 plain clothes police officers chase a man into Stockwell Tube station from the street.

Let's just imagine you are an innocent person, in a strange country. You're suddenly being chased by a random bunch of men, armed with guns - NOT IN OFFICIAL UNIFORM, but in plain clothes - a little detail which I note has conveniently been overlooked throughout this thread. Despite the minor detail that this information has been freely available since an hour after the event.

Why did he run from armed officers though? I wonder if maybe his English wasn't so good or something and he panicked.

As said above: they were not uniformed. They were undercover, i.e. dressed like 'ordinary' civilians. HE DID NOT KNOW THEY WERE OFFICERS, unless he was either psychic or aware that he was in deep shit, for whatever reason.

MadelynIris said:
Well if I put myself in the victims shoes, I'm afraid I would have stopped when challenged.

Oh please. Would you really. Even if you didn't know that they were police?

You've been in exactly the same situation (even though we don't know the full details yet)so many times, that you can cqategorically state exactly what you would have done?

What are you going to do, realistically? Hang around and try to explain yourself to a bunch of men chasing you?

It's oh-so-easy for us - all of us - to yap on about what we'd do,. We weren't there and the FACT of the matter is, none of us know.

So let's get real.
 
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nbcrusader said:
Police work always seems much easier to do on the Monday morning after the incident.

quote:
this information has been freely available since an hour after the event.


FizzingWhizzbees said:
Completely innocent of any terrorist offences though. It sounds increasingly likely that he'd stayed in this country after his visa expired and so ran from the police in fear of being reported to the asylum and immigration services if he was caught.

That's common sense if I've ever heard it - so, until we are more aware of what precisely went on, goodnight. :rolleyes:
 
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Oh don't be dumb, people. The Police officers would have had to identify themselves as Police upon drawing a gun on someone. It's the law. The people in the tubes knew that they were Police officers when told to evacuate the train and so the cops were obviously identifying themselves. Unless he didn't know what the word "Police" means, he knew damn well what he was doing when he ran.

And running from armed cops into a tube station the very day after terrorist attacks, jumping the turnstiles...do you think that's not going to be suspicious, especially if you've got nothing to hide?

Nobody seems to be wondering why the guy was wearing a bulky winter coat in July, either. And why the man was leaving a house under surveillance in connection with the attacks.

The guy just seems fishy to me. He may not have been involved specifically in these attacks, but he was either completely stupid or mixed up in something else criminal (and was still being a dumbass anyways).
 
He was from Spain. I know I'd be wearing full body thermals in an English summer if I went there.

But that is neither here nor there. I doubt anyone is going to feel as bad about this as the police. The English armed units are not trigger happy. Bobbies dont even carry guns, do they? I'd hardly say this was an act of cowboy heroics. It was a terrible error. Why that error occured is the most important issue now. Without tarring the police, the questions definitely remain as to why this fellow caused an armed unit to fire.
 
Axver said:
Completely innocent?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like it to me.

His student visa had just expired apparently....yeah, I guess that's a crime punishable by execution. :eyebrow:

I agree with A_Wanderer that we should await the outcome of the inquiry, but really comments like this are just slurring someone you know nothing about.
 
DaveC said:
Oh don't be dumb, people. The Police officers would have had to identify themselves as Police upon drawing a gun on someone. It's the law. The people in the tubes knew that they were Police officers when told to evacuate the train and so the cops were obviously identifying themselves. Unless he didn't know what the word "Police" means, he knew damn well what he was doing when he ran.

And running from armed cops into a tube station the very day after terrorist attacks, jumping the turnstiles...do you think that's not going to be suspicious, especially if you've got nothing to hide?

Nobody seems to be wondering why the guy was wearing a bulky winter coat in July, either. And why the man was leaving a house under surveillance in connection with the attacks.

The guy just seems fishy to me. He may not have been involved specifically in these attacks, but he was either completely stupid or mixed up in something else criminal (and was still being a dumbass anyways).

Great post. A group of twenty undercover police don't just come running after people with guns drawn - I would expect that they would have first tried to speak to him peacefully, identifying themselves sufficiently so that he knew they were law officers rather than random thugs, and I also imagine they wouldn't have pointed a gun at him until after he made a break.

The way some people are making it sound, you'd think twenty cops just randomly descended upon some poor innocent bloke with guns firing. I have a hard time believing that's the case - I would expect and hope that the police gave this man every chance to go peacefully, but he chose to ran.

It's a shame an investigation will probably take forever, as I'd like to know what really happened before we all jump to conclusions and hang the officers.
 
Well, according to their policy, they probably would have shot him anyway even if he wasn't running because he was a suspected suicide bomber. I doubt any of the police want to walk up to a suicide bomber and calmly ask him/her to accompany him to the nearest police station. Early reports from the inquiry say he was shot 8 times, once in the shoulder and 7 (SEVEN!!!) times in the head. This seems kind of excessive to me.

Also, suggesting he should have stopped if he knew it was the police is an easy judgement if you are not afraid of being deported from a country. Jean Charles de Menezes had an expired visa and did not want to risk officials finding out and deporting him from Britain. If you run from the police, unless you are armed or shooting at them, the likelihood of them chasing you down and blowing your brains out is remote. Or at least it used to be. Put yourself in this man's shoes before you suggest it was stupid to run. His personal experience with police in his own country, or mental state may have been factors in his instantaneous decision. People are motivated by different incentives and previous to this incident, police were not permitted to shoot first and ask questions later unless there is an explicit danger or threat based on facts not assumptions.
 
trevster2k said:


His personal experience with police in his own country, or mental state may have been factors in his instantaneous decision. People are motivated by different incentives and previous to this incident, police were not permitted to shoot first and ask questions later unless there is an explicit danger or threat based on facts not assumptions.

I agree. You can't really make a judgement based on what we have so far heard about this case as we have no idea what this guys circumstances were or what he was thinking when he ran away. People do things when they're in a panic that may seem completely stupid in hindsight but we weren't there so all we can do is speculate.
 
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