Police shoot 'dead' a suspect, London...

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I am in California, USA and listen to BBC on my NPR stations.

I heard immediately after it occurred.

I believe it was BBC and not NPR news service.
 
financeguy said:


If I went out tonight and drank 10 beers, then drove home and knocked someone over, could I claim the 'ultimate responsibility' lies with the bar-owner for selling me the beer? Or maybe we could trace it back to the person who invented alcohol, and say it was his fault?


OK maybe the phrase "ultimate responsibility" isn't correct but you can't say that they are entirely blameless for that man's death. The police have to straddle a razor-thin line between civil liberties and protecting the populace and they're only human - thus some mistakes will be made. They're dealing with quickly changing situations and partial information but in the end we've got to trust someone to make the call.

As for your example, if some bartender sold you enough alcohol to get you that drunk then I would think that the should share some of the blame for your actions whilst drunk. Thus why responsible establishments stop serving people when they've had too much.
 
Right, I guess the BBC must use different correspondents for the news they broadcast in the US because here the only comment made by the police was to confirm a man had been shot, it took them several hours even to confirm that he had died, much less make any comment on his identity or connection to Thursdays events.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
Right, I guess the BBC must use different correspondents for the news they broadcast in the US because here the only comment made by the police was to confirm a man had been shot, it took them several hours even to confirm that he had died, much less make any comment on his identity or connection to Thursdays events.

I was following it on the web for the whole day and I ready pretty much the same thing.
 
deep said:
I listen to BBC radio
and heard the Police say emphatically
that the dead guy was involved.


The public always feels reassured when a suspect is caught or identified.


I wonder who these four guys are?


to be fair


BBC may have only said that the shooting was directly related to the bombing investigations.

My NPR station plays one hour of Canadian public radio 11pm- midnight and BBC from midnight till 3 am.

My nightstand radio is on until I fall asleep.
 
deep said:



to be fair


BBC may have only said that the shooting was directly related to the bombing investigations.

My NPR station plays one hour of Canadian public radio 11pm- midnight and BBC from midnight till 3 am.

My nightstand radio is on until I fall asleep.

Canadia radio? BBC? Why do you hate America?:wink:
 
^I think it's fair to say the police/army probably killed at least one innocent Catholic during the troubles. More than one if you ask some people.

In any case this is tragic. I don't know if you can really blame the police, the guy was running from them onto a subway. It'd be so much better if they could've taken him out in a non-fatal way, I suppose they thought he'd trigger an explosive, I dunno. The guy's response was unwise, but it's horrible that he's dead.
 
Sparkysgrrrl said:
When the IRA used to be actively bombing why weren't all the white folk rounded up and treated this way?

It's bullshit.

Firstly, nobody has been rounded up, this is one incident -- a horrible, tragic incident, but not indicative of a policy of "rounding up" people of a particular ethnicity.

And secondly, let's not forget that there were horrible miscarriages of justice during the IRA's campaign - the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six, for example.
 
VertigoGal said:
^I think it's fair to say the police/army probably killed at least one innocent Catholic during the troubles. More than one if you ask some people.

The history of Northern Ireland is full of incidents of the British army and the RUC killing innocent people. The Stalker Inquiry in 1983 led to four RUC officers being charged with murder after numerous unarmed civilians were shot at checkpoints and there are many other instances of collusion between the RUC and loyalist paramilitaries, notably in the murder of Pat Finucane.
 
Unfortunatly the man was Brasilian, living and working legally in London. The London cabs were following the guy since he went out home until the subway, when the shots happen.
Our Minister is going to London.
The Scotland Yard admited the wrong procedure.:(
 
Yes, I read that he was Brasilian. A terrible error, for which the officers will be held accountable.
 
"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

I'm so sorry for Londons inoccent people!
:(
 
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
Right, I guess the BBC must use different correspondents for the news they broadcast in the US because here the only comment made by the police was to confirm a man had been shot, it took them several hours even to confirm that he had died, much less make any comment on his identity or connection to Thursdays events.

From the Associated Press:

LONDON (AP) - London police identified a man mistakenly shot dead in a subway station Saturday as a 27-year-old Brazilian citizen. Authorities said Jean Charles de Menezes was killed Friday at Stockwell station as police investigated the series of botched transit bombings a day earlier and the attacks of July 7 that killed 56, including the four bombers. A London police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the man was not connected to either set of attacks.

A day earlier, the police commissioner said the man was "directly linked" to Thursday's attacks, in which bombs on three subway trains and a bus failed to detonate properly. No one was injured.
 
Axver said:
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?

That's what everyone is trying to figure out. He ran from the police, even jumping a ticket barrier according to reports. Maybe he didn't understand english very well. Maybe he was mixed up in something else (drugs, other crime, etc.) and legged it for that reason.

I can see how he might be confused though, as they were plain clothed police officers with large guns - not a normal everyday sight. Perhaps the police should have publicised this "shoot to kill" policy before hand so everyone would have known just to cooperate if challenged.
 
From The Guardian:

"The address in Tulse Hill [where he lived] was identified from materials found inside the bombers' unexploded rucksacks on Thursday and was immediately put under surveillance. When Menezes, dressed in baseball cap, blue fleece and baggy trousers, emerged from it at around 10am on Friday, he was followed. When he headed for the nearby tube station, officers decided to arrest him. An armed unit took over, ordering him to stop. He did not. His unseasonally thick jacket apparently prompted concern that he had explosives strapped beneath."
 
Its now a MISTAKE. He had NOTHING to do with the bombings at ALL.


This is why 'shoot to kill' is the most fucking pathetic retarded thing ever. Like we are to think that police are rational thoughtful people that can handle situations. pffffffffft. There just like us, panic like shit and (for some) shoot first ask questions later!


LONDON (Reuters) - The apparent adoption of a shoot-to-kill policy by police balances the hope of stopping suicide bombers against the risk of alienating Muslims who fear they will be the most likely figures in the crosshairs.

Police hunting four men who tried to bomb London's transport system on Thursday -- two weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 commuters -- chased and shot dead a man on Friday who had been under surveillance and refused orders to halt.

They said they believed he was carrying a bomb. But late on Saturday they admitted they had got the wrong man and expressed regret.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," they said in a statement. "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The man's killing, at point-blank range with five shots to the head in front of shocked passengers on a packed underground train, triggered speculation that traditionally unarmed police had radically changed their approach.

"On Thursday the terrorists sent a message which was ... we can still reach out and touch you wherever you are," anti-terrorism expert Robert Ayers of the Royal Institute of International Affairs think tank told Reuters.

"The police message on Friday was 'we are not messing around ... we are going to kill your ass'," he said, noting the aim was to stop the device being triggered even in the throes of death.

Ayers said that aiming for the head not only ensured almost instantaneous death but also avoided the torso, where suicide bombers tend to carry their explosives which could be detonated by a bullet.

"Simple nervous system shut-down, that is the objective," Ayers said.

"The Metropolitan Police have very clearly demonstrated that they are operating on the premise right now that if they suspect that someone is a bomber, and that the public is going to be endangered by him, they have shoot-to-kill orders," he added.

NO DETERRENT?

But anti-terrorism expert Magnus Ranstorp of St Andrews University in Scotland said the policy -- which he said was openly adopted three years ago -- could do more harm than good.

"The Muslim community is very uneasy about this -- understandably," he told Reuters. "If there is a series of shooting incidents like this then it becomes a big political issue.

"This is not a major deterrent in terms of carrying out an attack, but it is counterproductive to the careful strategy that the police and government have set out in terms of minimising polarisation within ethnic communities," he added.

The Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC), said it was deeply concerned at the apparent policy.

"IHRC fears that innocent people may lose their lives due to the new 'shoot to kill' policy of the Metropolitan Police," chairman Massoud Shadjareh said in a statement.

It also said police had taken lessons from Israeli security services which have extensive experience in suicide bombings -- a line echoed by some newspapers.

The Metropolitan police declined to comment.

Shoot-to-kill is not a new phenomenon. It was allegedly used by British security forces in Northern Ireland and by the Special Air Service when its operatives shot dead three Irish Republican Army suspects in Gibraltar in 1988.

But it is deeply controversial.

"The overwhelming duty is to save lives, and the niceties of gentle community policing may have to be brushed aside," The Times newspaper said in an editorial defending the police.

However, the Financial Times said police had "taken a potentially dangerous turning", while the Daily Mail said they risked being accused of behaving "as badly as the terrorists".


I agree. Now yes, the guy ran, but there are lots of reasons why he ran, which he could have been ASKED had he not been shot in the head 5 times.

This happened in LONDON. In a first world country that is respectable and has a reputation for unarmed negotiation. This isn't America or some middle eastern place.

It frightens me, and i'm worried for friends of mine who are muslim, from lebanon and live in London, who ar eopposed to the war in Iraq. What if one day one of them accidently gets 'shot'
 
Wait for the investigation; people are being very hasty to condemn the officers involved.

If there was reasonable cause to think that he posed a threat to the passengers on the train as a bomber and the decision to incapacitate him was made on that basis shooting him in the head seems to be a reasonable protective measure. This was not an accident, the officers acted deliberately and when there has been an investigation the events and responsibility may be more adequately placed.
 
he left a house where the police THOUGHT some materials from a backpack had come from.

He was unarmed, wearing a bulky jacket and got frightened when plain clothes police men drew guns on him. Now im not saying he was an innocent bystander, he might have known something about the bombings. But they will never know because they shot him dead.

and therein lies the problem.
 
Because one somebody dies you can never, ever find out anything about them :rolleyes:

But his guilt or innocence was never put to trial in this and the announcement that he had no connection should be taken at face value, he was an innocent man.
 
Axver said:
But didn't this guy actually run from the police? Why would've he ran if he had nothing to hide?

Why do people on the road, who are driving prefectly legally within the speed limit, almost always slow down when a police car goes by with no siren on at all? As a passenger, I've noticed that this is automatic - it's always noticable. This happens invariably, unless the car they're after really is criminals trying to get way in a hurry. That's the UK for you.

It's not the same... but it is. Except this is much worse.

Being tailed by police freaks a lot of people out whether they've done anything wrong or not. As this generally applies to drivers reacting automatically to police presence, I would think that a lot of p[eople would have reacted in a similar way to thios unfortunate man.

It's also human nature to leg it if someone is chasing you - it's a natural instinct.

People are strange. So him running away means nothing.
 
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Welcome to the world of inner-city America, where even teens are routinely killed by police for suspected "drug crimes" every day, or for things like "resisting arrest." All you have to do is look the part. If they are able to plant drugs and things on you, so much the better.

Would they do this if the guy was white and dressed in expensive work clothes? The only really dumb thing Binny appears to doing right now is not recruiting or attempting to recruit people for his operations who look less suspicious. (Dumb, of course, I mean looking at it from his POV...not what I want to be doing, of course, but "know your enemy"!) Eastern Europeans, etc. The day the Bastard in Chief catches on to this little combat tactic, and begins operations using people who look similar to the place where they intend to attack, things will get REALLY hairy.....
 
But police don't randomly come running at you with guns; I would assume they would have at least identified themselves and he would've known that they were the police. So it still seems very suspicious to me that he sprinted to get away from them if he had absolutely nothing to hide.

I would love to know the results of the investigation. It seems way too soon to flatly condemn the police officers for shooting an 'innocent' man.
 
dazzlingamy said:
Like we are to think that police are rational thoughtful people that can handle situations. pffffffffft. There just like us, panic like shit and (for some) shoot first ask questions later!
That's nonsense. Police cadets go to at least 16 weeks academy to learn how to handle these types of situations, and are well-trained to han dle dangerous situations. Have you had 16 weeks of Police Academy? They are not "just like" you.
 
Teta040 said:
Welcome to the world of inner-city America, where even teens are routinely killed by police for suspected "drug crimes" every day, or for things like "resisting arrest." All you have to do is look the part. If they are able to plant drugs and things on you, so much the better.

The crooked cops are the minority, not the majority.
 
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