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Old 08-11-2006, 02:53 AM   #121
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But I guess my point is, if they had already snuck the bomb on the plane and seated, what's going to deter them from pushing the buttom on the cell phone, camera, or whatever the reported device was going to be?


As far as making it worse. What's to stop someone with 1/2 of Jack Bauer's ability to take away these arms and turn them on to the passengers?
You can do very little damage to a lot of people with a low velocity pistol or a taser, so grabbing a marshalls weapon does not seem to be a threat. Having Air Marshalls has been an effective detterent for El Al, and they profile so non-Jews are medium risk and Muslims are high risk for security. Religious profiling strikes me as legitimate.
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Old 08-11-2006, 03:04 AM   #122
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Originally posted by JMScoopy
here's how to stop terrorists from blowing up and hijacking planes:

take a look at countries that are not victims of terrorists' attacks

and compare their foreign policy
to America's foreign policy

perhaps it is time to rethink
or better yet

think clearly about why America does what it does
in relationship to what it gets for what it does
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Old 08-11-2006, 03:45 AM   #123
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Seems an adequate explanation for the terror plot against Canada.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:03 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


take a look at countries that are not victims of terrorists' attacks

and compare their foreign policy
to America's foreign policy

perhaps it is time to rethink
or better yet

think clearly about why America does what it does
in relationship to what it gets for what it does
Do you teach that bad things happen to those who sin?

Or would you prefer Hezbollah to set US foreign policy?
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:10 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


take a look at countries that are not victims of terrorists' attacks

and compare their foreign policy
to America's foreign policy

perhaps it is time to rethink
or better yet

think clearly about why America does what it does
in relationship to what it gets for what it does
How do you explain all the terrorist plots, foiled and otherwise, that happened under Presidents who didn't have the type of foreign policy that Bush has? Bush is not the only reason.

Bottom line is, money. The airports, airlines and the govt don't always want to spend the maximum money on security. Some technology is available and very expensive, granted some isn't. Terrorists like al-Quada are the definition of evil genius. They study and plot and know so much about what can be detected, how to hide it, etc. Yes no security is 100 percent failsafe, but all involved could make their best effort and could do more. It means delays and inconvenience for the passengers, but that's the reality. Most people are willing to put up with it.

Congress actually asked for a test which was done a few months ago, to get the components of liquid and other types of explosives on planes, and in over 20 airports the testers were able to get them on undetected. I saw so many shows last night that I can't keep them straight now, it might have been on msnbc. I believe it was, they showed an earlier NBC video report from Lisa Myers on the subject. It was also discussed on Paula Zahn

Paula Zahn transcript

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...10/pzn.01.html

ZAHN: But you have got Representative John Mica out there, who happens to be the chairman of the Transportation Subcommittee, saying that the system that we now have in place is farcical, and that the failure rate to detect explosives is just disastrous.

TOWNSEND: There's no question, Paula, that the Department of Homeland Security works with industry to push the technology, so it improves. And they have gotten greater explosive-detection equipment, with greater reliability.

And we will continue to work with industry and push them, and get the state-of-the-art equipment, and have it deployed in airports.

ZAHN: Is this fair criticism, on his part, because Representative Mica goes on to say that billions of dollars have been spent on this very specific kind of equipment you're talking about, that would detect explosives, but, in many cases, it's sitting on shelves and not even being used.

TOWNSEND: You know, Paula, this is the first I -- I'm hearing of Representative Mica's criticism.

I can tell you, having worked with Kip Hawley, who's the head of TSA, and with Secretary Chertoff, there is no higher priority than ensuring that this equipment is timely deployed, that the screeners have the adequate training, so they're using it properly, and ensuring that we get the maximum advantage of that equipment and the money that we're spending on aviation security.

ZAHN: You say you're hearing some of Representative Mica's criticism for the first time.

And, yet, there was a pretty stinging GAO report that came out at the beginning of the spring, suggesting some major deficiencies in how the TSA was operating. Has anything changed? Have things gotten better since that report came out?

TOWNSEND: You know, I -- I can tell you, I know that Secretary -- having spoken to him, Secretary Chertoff and Kip Hawley made a priority out of going through the -- working with the inspector general, going through that report, and ensuring that changes, specific changes, to their -- to the findings were put in place.


CLARK KENT ERVIN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it isn't, Paula.

I was really fascinated by that interview.

To say a word about that GAO report you talked about, congressional investigators were able, just a few months ago, to sneak bomb components, ingredients that, by themselves, are benign, but together, mixed together, could be explosives, past screeners at 21 airports in the country, undetected.

At the time, Kip Hawley, the head of TSA, to whom Ms. Townsend referred, really pooh-poohed the report, and said, well, it's just a hypothetical possibility. We really need not worry about that.

And, today, obviously, we see that al Qaeda was planning to do just that.



ZAHN: So, what can really be done to prevent -- and I know nothing is ever 100 percent safe -- but prevent explosives, potentially, from being allowed to come on a plane?

ERVIN: Well, you're right to say that we can't have 100 percent security. That's right.

But there are certainly things that we could do that would make us significantly safer. One such thing is to significantly increase the percentage of luggage. It should be 100 percent of luggage that is inspected for explosives.

And individuals, passengers, should be inspected for trace explosives. But, as you noted, the percentage is around 10 to 20 percent. There might not be an anomaly in a bag that would trigger additional explosive-detection technology.

It needs to happen as a matter of course. And I hope, as a result of this plot having been, fortunately, foiled, that that's where we're going to go to right away.

ZAHN: So, when Ms. Townsend says we should feel pretty safe getting on an airplane tonight, are -- are you saying that we shouldn't get on airplanes at all?

ERVIN: No, I'm not saying that. We can't live our lives in fear.

And, certainly, there is a possibility that we could be attacked at any time. What I am saying, though, is that there are significant vulnerabilities that we have not taken seriously.

For example, there's cargo in the cargo holds of about 20 percent of the passenger planes that fly in America, and virtually none of that cargo is inspected before it goes into the cargo hold. That's inexcusable. There's 100 percent inspection in Britain, Israel, and the Netherlands.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:13 AM   #126
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Perfect timing for these announcements.

Perfect timing to distract the population from what is going on in the Middle East and allow Bush and Blair to basically do whatever they want there.

I honestly question the timing of this announcement very much and, as Michael Moore said, start to think that this is a way of playing with the public opinion, and making them afraid.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:22 AM   #127
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I saw this news on tv the other night..discouraging piece of information needless to say. Gives me extra patient though for that tight security i have to go through everytime i fly.
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:44 AM   #128
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Editorial

Assessing our adversaries

By Graham Allison | August 11, 2006

AS THE World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks become a more distant memory, many Americans comfort themselves with the thought that 9/11 was a freak accident or a 100-year flood. Yesterday's arrest of 21 suspected terrorists, who were in the operational stage of preparation to blow up airplanes en route from Britain to the United States, serves as another stark wake-up call to the brute fact that so many find so hard to believe: There are a large number of people in the world who seriously want to kill us.

As we applaud the diligence of British security services that unraveled this plot, there are deeper questions Americans should reflect on. Why are so many people prepared to give up their own lives to kill Americans? Why are there so many people in the world who support them? Why do so many people believe that their methods are justifiable?

A year into the war in Iraq, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld posed a similar question to his four closest colleagues in the Pentagon in a memo that was subsequently leaked. About US strategy in the global war on terrorism, he asked: ``Are we capturing, killing, or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training, and deploying against us?"

Assessing our adversaries' numbers dynamically and seeking to understand their motivation clinically is not to sympathize with them, but to attempt to design better strategies to defeat them. That requires understanding how our actions increase sympathy, support, and incentives for would-be killers. As commanders of US forces in Iraq have observed, if by calling down airstrikes on a house containing one terrorist and 10 innocents we subtract one terrorist but recruit 10 replacements, we move backward in our mission.

Nine months after 9/11, Al Qaeda announced its goal to kill four million Americans. As an affiliated website stated: ``We have the right to kill four million Americans -- two million of them children -- and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands" to compensate for the Muslims killed by what Osama bin Laden called the ``Jewish-Christian crusaders."

One can only imagine how bin Laden's target number is growing as the war in Iraq continues, and now as Israel pursues its campaigns in Gaza and Lebanon.

The capture of the would-be plane bombers in London should cause us to reflect on our longer-run strategy for what the president has rightly called the ``long war" on terrorism. In that war, there are today more people who see the United States as the major threat to themselves than there were on 9/11. In that war, the war in Iraq has caused more people around the world to support terrorists who want to kill us. Clearly, we must continue efforts at monitoring, disrupting, capturing, incarcerating, or eliminating determined killers. But a strategic reassessment of our longer-term strategy for the war on terrorism would highlight at least three areas that require substantial change on our part.

First, we must acknowledge that the surest way to generate terrorists is to occupy their territory. The French learned this in Algeria; the Israelis, in the occupation of Lebanon from 1978 to 2000. To the extent that US troops are seen as occupiers in Iraq or Israeli troops occupiers in Lebanon, history would predict we motivate terrorists. The quiet, unadvertised withdrawal of US forces from bases in Saudi Arabia removed one of bin Laden's raison d'etre: to force American and other ``crusaders" to remove their troops from Arab lands.

Second, we must recognize that most of the actions required to discover and capture terrorist plotters like the ``London 21" will be taken by other governments -- or not at all. However great our effort, it cannot approach the extent and effectiveness of the British government in Britain, the Saudi government in Saudi Arabia, the Pakistani government in its country. But gaining their assistance will require greater sensitivity to these governments' and their citizens' concerns on issues at the top of their agendas. To Americans who ask why we care that majorities even in allied countries disapprove of the United States and especially the Bush administration and believe that America is the greatest threat to international security, the answer is that their cooperation in outing a jihadist in their midst may be essential to our security.

Finally, we must delegitimize terrorism -- making it as internationally unacceptable as slavery or piracy.

As President Bush has rightly said, we live in a ``dangerous world." Effectively combating this threat will, however, require more imagination and harder choices in the long run.

Graham Allison is director of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs and author of ``Nuclear Terrorism: The Ultimate Preventable Catastrophe."
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:45 AM   #129
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Originally posted by U2@NYC
Perfect timing for these announcements.

Perfect timing to distract the population from what is going on in the Middle East and allow Bush and Blair to basically do whatever they want there.

I honestly question the timing of this announcement very much and, as Michael Moore said, start to think that this is a way of playing with the public opinion, and making them afraid.
WTF?

2000-3000 lives were just saved by Pakastani, British, and US agencys working together. You're honestly going to question the timing of these arrests?

Try and to see the big picture here and get beyond your loony Michael Moore conspiracy BS.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:05 AM   #130
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Originally posted by U2@NYC
Perfect timing for these announcements.

Perfect timing to distract the population from what is going on in the Middle East and allow Bush and Blair to basically do whatever they want there.

I honestly question the timing of this announcement very much and, as Michael Moore said, start to think that this is a way of playing with the public opinion, and making them afraid.

Oh dear.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:16 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2@NYC
Perfect timing for these announcements.

Perfect timing to distract the population from what is going on in the Middle East and allow Bush and Blair to basically do whatever they want there.

I honestly question the timing of this announcement very much and, as Michael Moore said, start to think that this is a way of playing with the public opinion, and making them afraid.
Your skepticism is very good and I hope that it is completely unwarranted, but keep asking the questions. The time when we don't hear these opinions expressed is the time that they may actually be true.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:40 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2@NYC
Perfect timing for these announcements.

Perfect timing to distract the population from what is going on in the Middle East and allow Bush and Blair to basically do whatever they want there.

I honestly question the timing of this announcement very much and, as Michael Moore said, start to think that this is a way of playing with the public opinion, and making them afraid.
Sorry, but this is absolute bullocks. My parents live a quarter-mile from where one of the cells was located. They called me yesterday with helicopters soaring overhead and their city street on the news.

The people who shut this operation down were HEROES. Anyone who says differently...well, I have two words for you.
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:55 AM   #133
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The people who shut this operation down were HEROES. Anyone who says differently...well, I have two words for you.
amen
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Old 08-11-2006, 11:11 AM   #134
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Originally posted by MaxFisher


WTF?

2000-3000 lives were just saved by Pakastani, British, and US agencys working together. You're honestly going to question the timing of these arrests?

Try and to see the big picture here and get beyond your loony Michael Moore conspiracy BS.
I'm sorry if you do not like it and love to suck up to whatever the Government tells you.

I have the right not to trust whatever is filtered by this very biased Government, that every time that sees a reduction in popularity ratings, comes up with a new "threat" to justify the war on terrorism.

Yes, I will question the timing of these arrests and their nature. And I'm not saying that they were unwarranted or not, but every single act done by the Bush - Blair alliance will always warrant my suspicion.
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Old 08-11-2006, 11:14 AM   #135
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Sorry, but this is absolute bullocks. My parents live a quarter-mile from where one of the cells was located. They called me yesterday with helicopters soaring overhead and their city street on the news.

The people who shut this operation down were HEROES. Anyone who says differently...well, I have two words for you.
Great. I'm glad they put on a great show.

Listen, I'm not saying that all these conspiracy was a lie. I'm saying that I question its truth and fundaments, and that its timing is, as I said before, questionable.

I'm sorry, I do not believe everything that has been told by Bush, Blair and their friends and September 11th. And, although I do not think this was all a conspiracy, I think that there are several "questionable" facts and that yesterday's announcement falls among them.

And, given that I'm flying to London in a month, I have a personal take in this matter.
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