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Old 11-10-2006, 11:50 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Liesje


He's not rich. He grew up on a rural farm and was lucky to have access to electricity. He's the only one in his family that's educated and speaks multiple languages. He lived being poor in El Salvador until he was 18 and visits frequently. He was able to afford school because our school has program for people like him and provide MASSIVE amounts of financial aid.

You should stop making assumptions about people because it just hurts your arguments in the end.
Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:52 AM   #17
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This is what I dont get. The people in Oaxaca, Mexico rose up against the local government and I believe is still continuing, why cant that lead to a change for mexico to improve it's economy, leadership roles in the government etc... If the people in Oaxaca are not afraid to stand up, then why should the rest of mexico be.
To be fair, Oaxaca's different than the rest of Mexico, just as Arizona is vastly different from Connecticut. The issues are different - if people from Arizona rise up because the government won't pay for desert irrigation projects, it's not likely to get much support from someone in, say, New Jersey.

Do you know why the Oaxacans are revolting? (this is a genuine question, I really have no idea why they're so upset with the Mexican government)
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:53 AM   #18
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DaveC, I completely agree. I just feel that part of the problem is that there are so many here already. People lose a LOT of money because of this, so no one's too keen on just granting blanket amnesty. Any decisions that are made will somehow affect those that have already come illegally, so how to we take that into consideration? We can't just deport people, and we can't just give free rides, so how to we make it fair for EVERYONE?... for the people who want to come here illegally but have no way, the people already here illegally, and the people who've always been here legally paying their taxes, social security, and such...
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:55 AM   #19
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Good question.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:55 AM   #20
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Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.
No, that was not him. See, I could complain that I had to pay twice as much tuition because I WAS born here and I'm white, but I value diversity and giving people a chance. I'm happy that part of my taxes and tuition go into these types of programs that bring people like Jose to the US for education and job opportunities.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:01 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Liesje
DaveC, I completely agree. I just feel that part of the problem is that there are so many here already. People lose a LOT of money because of this, so no one's too keen on just granting blanket amnesty. Any decisions that are made will somehow affect those that have already come illegally, so how to we take that into consideration? We can't just deport people, and we can't just give free rides, so how to we make it fair for EVERYONE?... for the people who want to come here illegally but have no way, the people already here illegally, and the people who've always been here legally paying their taxes, social security, and such...
So how do we fix the problem, then?

Do we offer the opportunity for all illegals to apply for legal status at a MUCH discounted price, then actually do the background checks that go along with it? Toss out those who shouldn't be there anyways, and keep the people who are just looking for a better life.

It's a complicated problem with a very complex solution.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:20 PM   #22
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Here is the story on Oaxaca.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6102018.stm
"Q&A: Crisis in Oaxaca
The Mexican state of Oaxaca has seen five months of protests against Governor Ulises Ruiz. Here we look at the background to the conflict which has claimed at least six lives.

Protesters set up barricades in the centre of the city
What are the origins of the crisis?

On 1 May 2006, teachers in Oaxaca handed in a document listing their grievances and demands. They then went on strike, saying they had received no answer from the local authorities.

The crisis reached a new level on 14 June, when local police tried to remove the protesters who had, since 22 May been occupying the centre of the city. Some 750 police officers took part in the operation. Media reports at the time said at least four people had died in the clashes - a claim denied by the local authorities.

What do the teachers want?

They are demanding better pay, as well as a series of measures to help poorer pupils, including: breakfasts for schoolchildren, scholarships, uniforms, shoes, medical services and textbooks. The teachers are also demanding the resignation of the Oaxaca Governor, Ulises Ruiz.

Are other groups supporting the teachers?

Yes. The teachers' movement is backed by an umbrella group known as the Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca (Appo), formed on 17 June by 365 grassroots organisations including unions, indigenous and peasant groups and women's movements.

The protest movement has also received the backing of Zapatista rebel leader Subcomandante Marcos and former left-wing presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

What form has the Appo's protest taken?

The Appo describes its movement as one of "peaceful and civil resistance". The demonstrators have occupied a number of radio stations, public buildings and erected barricades in the areas they control.

The movement has held five mass protest marches. The last one attracted about 900,000 people, according to the organisers.

Why are they seeking the removal of the governor?

The Appo says the Mr Ruiz's resignation is a key condition for any negotiated solution to the conflict.

The teachers say he has not met their demands and blame him for the violence on 14 June. Protesters accuse him of corruption and repressive tactics against dissenters.

How many people have been affected by the teachers' strike?

An estimated 1.3 million students - from 14,000 schools - have not been able to attend classes since May.

Last week, teachers voted to return to class, but their union said certain conditions needed to be met before that could happen.

What is the federal government doing about the crisis?

On Monday 30 October, senators unanimously approved a resolution calling on Mr Ruiz to "consider resigning from office to help restore law and order", a call that was rejected by the Oaxaca governor.

After resisting calls to send federal forces to Oaxaca, President Vicente Fox's finally did so on 28 October. Security forces retook the centre of the city at the weekend, but the violence has continued and the protesters have regrouped."
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:22 PM   #23
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I have a question? Do you think these two border patrol agents should have gone to jail?

"http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/21/14637/996
Border Agents Get 11 & 12 years for Shooting Pot Smuggler
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:46:00 AM EST
Last year while patrolling the border, two border agents, Ignacio "Nacho" Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean, stopped a van carrying 743 pounds of pot. The driver, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, fled across the border and both agents fired. One of the bullets hit Aldrete-Davila in the behind.

Federal prosecutors convinced a jury in March that the agents had shot a defenseless man and schemed to cover it up. Much of the evidence against them came from the drug runner, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, who reported the shooting to a friend at the Border Patrol in Arizona. Aldrete-Davila was given immunity from prosecution by the U.S. attorney's office.

Yesterday, the agents were were sentenced to federal prison terms of 11 years and 12 years.

The Minutemen decried the sentence. Why?


The case has become a cause celebre among activists against illegal immigration and advocates of stronger border security, who say it epitomizes misplaced priorities of federal prosecutors as well as the predicament of Border Patrol agents, who must fight heavily armed criminals with little or no force.

I side with the man who was shot:

Walter Boyaki, an attorney representing the smuggler, commended federal prosecutors for having the courage to carry on with a politically unpopular case, and argued that if the agents had not been punished, it would have "put a bull's-eye on every illegal alien.""
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:34 PM   #24
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Originally posted by DaveC


So how do we fix the problem, then?

Do we offer the opportunity for all illegals to apply for legal status at a MUCH discounted price, then actually do the background checks that go along with it? Toss out those who shouldn't be there anyways, and keep the people who are just looking for a better life.

It's a complicated problem with a very complex solution.
I'm interested in knowing more about how these costs work. I wouldn't expect immigration to be free by any means. Do you know if costs have to be paid up front? It would make more sense to me that only a very small amount would be due up front, and once the paper work was processed, the person would pay off whatever is required later on. Otherwise, it totally defeats the purpose of coming here (or Canada) to start from scratch and having to pay like $1500 to cross the border. If the costs were lowered considerably and could be paid in increments, it would be easier to backtrack and require current illegals to file paper work and also pay off the cost.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:41 PM   #25
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I'm not fully sure, but I think a fee is paid up front (as a "deposit") when the application is submitted, and then once it's approved the rest of the payment has to be made.

Quote:
I have a question? Do you think these two border patrol agents should have gone to jail?
I think the issue here is the fact that the guy was trying to smuggle nearly 750 pounds of weed across the border, not that he had entered illegally. And yes, I do think they should have gone to jail.
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:48 PM   #26
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I don't know what the costs involved in an "average" citizenship case ultimately amount to, but the process does take many years for most, and I'd assume that's another motive for trying to get around it. First you have to acquire Longterm Permanent Resident (LPR) status--i.e., get a Green Card--which in itself usually takes several years. This begins with a qualifying relative or employer petitioning US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) for your right to apply for a visa (if it's an employer, they must first prove that no current US citizens or LPRs are available to fill the position for which you'd be hired). Once the petition is approved, then you (or your employer) apply to the State Department for an immigration visa. This process takes anywhere from around 6 months (it's faster if it's an employer filing) to several years, depending on the quotas for the country you're coming from and various other factors. Then once you have the visa, you're ready apply to USCIS for permanent residency status, which also requires assembling a large array of documentation--tax records, medical records, employment records, etc. Currently this process averages about 3 years, according to their website. Often during this time the visa expires, so you have to leave the country and then start that process all over again. LPR status does NOT give you the right to bring your spouse or children to the US.

There's also the "Green Card Lottery," which is mostly for prospective immigrants from countries with low rates of immigration to the US, and which if you're selected allows you to bypass much of the above. However, proportionally very few immigrants acquire LPR status this way, as selection is random (relative to the limited country-of-origin pool) and the number of Green Cards available through lottery is very limited.

Once LPR status is obtained, then you must reside continuously in the US as an LPR for 5 years before being eligible to apply for citizenship, which requires basic command of English (except in the case of some longstanding older LPRs), as well as of course passing the citizenship exam.

The only fees I was able to find data on (and these are only averages) is that the immigration visa application fee is about $40 (each time), the LPR status application fee is about $30, and the citizenship application fee is about $50. But presumably there are in practice many other costs involved (travel, legal consultation, assembling the needed documentation, vaccinations, etc.).

Of course there are a zillion and one potential exceptions to any or all of the above involved, but so far as I know this is roughly how a "typical" citizenship acquisition process currently works.
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:22 PM   #27
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Whether those patrol agents should have gone to jail is a matter for a court to decide based on the criminal code in the state they were charged. The fact the guy was an illegal smuggler does not mean you get to toss the criminal code aside and behave any way you want. We have entrenched laws for a reason.
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Old 11-10-2006, 05:21 PM   #28
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Whether those patrol agents should have gone to jail is a matter for a court to decide based on the criminal code in the state they were charged. The fact the guy was an illegal smuggler does not mean you get to toss the criminal code aside and behave any way you want. We have entrenched laws for a reason.
This is what amazes me. That everyone says there are laws and that what the Patrol Agents did was against the law. The Smuggler broke the law and so do millions of people who come in Illegaly from other countries. So it's ok to break one law (entering illegally) but to take down a smuggler is wrong?

Remember smugglers can bring in drugs, sex slaves weapons etc..

The African slaves brought to america were brought by smugglers weren't they?
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Old 11-10-2006, 05:39 PM   #29
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So it's ok to break one law (entering illegally) but to take down a smuggler is wrong?
Some laws are more entrenched than others, I suppose.
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Old 11-10-2006, 06:37 PM   #30
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This is what amazes me. That everyone says there are laws and that what the Patrol Agents did was against the law. The Smuggler broke the law and so do millions of people who come in Illegaly from other countries. So it's ok to break one law (entering illegally) but to take down a smuggler is wrong?

Remember smugglers can bring in drugs, sex slaves weapons etc..

The African slaves brought to america were brought by smugglers weren't they?
Justin, this logic doesn't make sense. By this logic all policemen, FBI agents, etc would have no need to follow the law.
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