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Old 06-13-2008, 08:50 PM   #16
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Well, look at this way. Would you want Canada to join the US, and have your parliament and executive reporting to Washington? Because ultimately, in my opinion, that it what we dealing with here.
Uhm, is that supposed to be informative to the posters who asked for more information on the topic? Your posts on this topic are lacking in substance or argument. I find it really hard to believe you really know what you're on about.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:51 PM   #17
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Well, look at this way. Would you want Canada to join the US, and have your parliament and executive reporting to Washington? Because ultimately, in my opinion, that it what we dealing with here.
Which EU nation(s) would you say are like "the U.S.," in the sense of setting the tone and dominating over the other nations?
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:52 PM   #18
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Uhm, is that supposed to be informative to the posters who asked for more information on the topic? Your posts on this topic are lacking in substance or argument. I find it really hard to believe you really know what you're on about.
The good news, though, is that I find "public perception" just as interesting as the facts.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:55 PM   #19
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A lot of these workers get support from the government to get adjusted, this includes payment of accommodation for a peroid of time along with any bills and you dont honestly think someone who has just come from eastern Europe could honestly afford a mortage in the UK ?
and they get all this help because a high percentage of them do work that you can't get Irish people to do even if you would increase the salaries 25%

I've worked with some Eastern Europeans too in Britain
and, really, to pretend that they were doing jobs that any substantial number of British people was even remotely interested in is just not true

they're not there to do the well paid interesting jobs
they mostly do jobs we can't be arsed with
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:57 PM   #20
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ultimately, in your opinion ........... yes

now if you could tell me what this opinion is based on then maybe we would have something real to talk about
I'm afraid that you have it the wrong way around.

The onus should always be on those advocating dramatic and significant political change to prove their case - not on those who favour the status quo to prove theirs.

In another thread, you presented an outlandish Delorian (*) theory that a free trade arrangement necessitates political union - an argument which I rapidly disposed of (consulting a basic economist textbook may assist you, if you are still struggling).

Accordingly, let's hear why you want to set aside the democratically expressed opinions of the electorates of France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Ireland and impose your political union over their heads.

Every single country that has had a vote, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, has said no. Wibbling, waffling nonsense about the turnout being x, y, or z% isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. You assert that the Dutch vote needn't matter, as the turnout was too low. If we are going to go down the road of assigning motives to those Dutch who choose not to vote, it could equally be assumed that by staying home, they were saying no.

And, to emphasize again, a majority of the electorates of the countries that voted do not agree with you. They agree with me. So your arguments in favour of European political union would probably want to be pretty robust.


(*Jacques Delors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:59 PM   #21
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Which EU nation(s) would you say are like "the U.S.," in the sense of setting the tone and dominating over the other nations?

The Franco-German alliance.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:59 PM   #22
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Uhm, is that supposed to be informative to the posters who asked for more information on the topic? Your posts on this topic are lacking in substance or argument. I find it really hard to believe you really know what you're on about.
Post reported.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:03 PM   #23
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This is the reason why the public cant have a debate on the topic, because you are automatically accused of racism.

A lot of these workers get support from the government to get adjusted, this includes payment of accommodation for a peroid of time along with any bills and you dont honestly think someone who has just come from eastern Europe could honestly afford a mortage in the UK ? I know this is fact because i myself have worked with these people. They work hard and long but ultimately they are driving the wages down. Polish folk come here because they can easily earn treble what they would at home. I have no problem with Eastern Europeans, its more the free movement act and the long term effect such policy will have on the economy.
All good points. In relation to your first paragraph, as you may have noticed, the modus operandi of some leftwing posters on FYM is to go slandering and slurring people who don't agree with them by throwing accusations of racism around.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:07 PM   #24
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A lot of these workers get support from the government to get adjusted, this includes payment of accommodation for a peroid of time along with any bills and you dont honestly think someone who has just come from eastern Europe could honestly afford a mortage in the UK ? I know this is fact because i myself have worked with these people. They work hard and long but ultimately they are driving the wages down. Polish folk come here because they can easily earn treble what they would at home. I have no problem with Eastern Europeans, its more the free movement act and the long term effect such policy will have on the economy.
You don't like the idea of free movement within the EU because too many Poles are in the country and taking all our jobs because they'll work for peanuts and it's their fault that the wages are going down? (I would love to know where you got that tidbit of information). You don't think that comes off as sounding a bit racist?

I'm Irish and I can't afford a mortgage here. Doesn't matter what nationality you are. Hence the reason I asked would they not have rent OR a mortgage to pay. Everyone needs a roof over their head. And the support they get from the government isn't always there, they have to work too.

What is really wrong is that employers see fit to pay them a salary for a job that you say Irish people would get paid more for.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:11 PM   #25
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In another thread, you presented an outlandish Delorian (*) theory that a free trade arrangement necessitates political union - an argument which I rapidly disposed of (consulting a basic economist textbook may assist you, if you are still struggling).
lol, you are a funny guy

I don't need to consult any basic economic text books
even though i didn't chose accountantguy as an alter I did get my degrees in accountancy and am doing quite ok thanks

you are making up a lot of nonsense again to hide the apparent fact that you have no idea what you're talking about
I'm not even asking you to prove your case
I'm asking what was in the referendum that you don't agree with

I also didn't present any theory
(and, this may come as a surprise, but I'm also aware of Jacques Delors is as Europe after World War II was the major part of my history exam)
I just stated that certain things need to be solved in Europe

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Every single country that has had a vote, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, has said no. Wibbling, waffling nonsense about the turnout being x, y, or z% isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. You assert that the Dutch vote needn't matter, as the turnout was too low. If we are going to go down the road of assigning motives to those Dutch who choose not to vote, it could equally be assumed that by staying home, they were saying no.

And, to emphasize again, a majority of the electorates of the countries that voted do not agree with you. They agree with me. So your arguments in favour of European political union would probably want to be pretty robust.
I wasn't saying the Dutch vote didn't matter
I was saying that when you elect people first to deal with matter than having 37% of the electorate (yes, I'm afraid I actually looked this up) state they're now against what has been decided doesn't make some extremely strong case as far as I'm concerned

maybe I should talk to this majority of the electorate who all agree with you though, because maybe they can explain what it is you all agree on
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:13 PM   #26
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All good points. In relation to your first paragraph, as you may have noticed, the modus operandi of some leftwing posters on FYM is to go slandering and slurring people who don't agree with them by throwing accusations of racism around.
and you actually reported a poster for saying you appear to be posting without having a clue what you're talking about?

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Old 06-13-2008, 09:13 PM   #27
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Well, look at this way. Would you want Canada to join the US, and have your parliament and executive reporting to Washington? Because ultimately, in my opinion, that it what we dealing with here.
But do you dispute that Ireland has benefited more from their membership in the EU/EEC than possibly any other country in Europe? That your standard of living has risen disproportionately during the time period, that foreign investment has gone through the roof?

I'm just wondering how you reconcile the obvious benefits with the vehement opposition?
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:17 PM   #28
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and they get all this help because a high percentage of them do work that you can't get Irish people to do even if you would increase the salaries 25%

I've worked with some Eastern Europeans too in Britain
and, really, to pretend that they were doing jobs that any substantial number of British people was even remotely interested in is just not true

they're not there to do the well paid interesting jobs
they mostly do jobs we can't be arsed with
Yes your right, a lot of jobs they undertake can be seen as " dogs body " jobs but they are trickling into other industry sectors too now.There are quite a lot of factories around me that specifically target the polish community for labour. Call centre's and independent shops are also becoming increasingly popular amongst the Polish community.

My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases. Intergration is key, so far this is failing badly, such an admission has been admited by the British government.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:20 PM   #29
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Yes your right, a lot of jobs they undertake can be seen as " dogs body " jobs but they are trickling into other industry sectors too now.There are quite a lot of factories around me that specifically target the polish community for labour. Call centre's and independent shops are also becoming increasingly popular amongst the Polish community.

My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases.
This could have been written by a Republican.

About the Mexicans.

It sounds IDENTICAL.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:21 PM   #30
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My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases.
Wow, we agree! I defintely think if you live in another country you need to learn the language. It's very difficult to live in a country where you can't. I can speak French and Spanish but I'll never be as good as a native so you have to remember that a lot of call centres need people to speak another language but they also want people fluent in the lingo. That's why a lot of foreign folk get those jobs, they're the best candidates.
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