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Old 05-07-2003, 02:32 PM   #46
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its a bad thing because we wouldn't have to be living with all this if they found bin Laden and took care of this crap. No need for soldiers with guns at MSG, no need to worry about invasion of privacy. no need to worry about the subway and bridges. Its been 18 months and while we've found a guy here and a guy there, we haven't found bin Laden. Also be aware that security had to increase significantly after we started a war because we were afraid of retaliation against us.

Ask Bush what happens when you keep poking a Texas rattlesnake. Its been mentioned several times by several people -- this war is going to breed another bin Laden, and we haven't even caught the first one.
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Old 05-07-2003, 06:44 PM   #47
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this is not peru in 1986. there are no curfews installed on us.
Not yet. There will be when you think that getting wanded everywhere is just a "minor inconvience." Then the curfew will be "worth it," and then the wiretaps on everyone's phone will be a "security measure," and then the total suspension of the Constitution will be "temporary." Sure, I'm going overboard here, but small steps lead to bigger ones.


And the CIA/FBI did have information about the attacks. It was ignored. So now we have a cute little color coded system that changes color based on captured people jerking our chains to watch us dance.
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Old 05-09-2003, 06:58 PM   #48
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please people... come on. that is exactly the point. the cia and fbi had general information, nothing specific. they've had similar information thousands of times before, and nothing happened. so now the attacks happen, they look stupid for sitting on information, so now they have the color code system which they raise or lower based on this information... true information or false information.
connecting being wanded while going into an area with a large crowd to wire taps and curfews is just insane. they've got metal detectors at airports... you want to get rid of them because they're an invasion of privacy?

and as for bin laden... once he's gone, someone will take his place. he's the one who hit us, but he's not the only one who hates us. he's in charge of al qaeda, and he has knowledge of the attacks, and ultimately approved the attacks... but he didn't plan the attacks. before him there was sheik omar abdel-rahman was the mastermind behind the plots to blow up all the tunnels and bridges in the city... thankfully that plot was discovered weeks before it was to be carried out. and abdel-rahman wasn't in a cave in afgahnistan... he was in new jersey.
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Old 05-11-2003, 06:32 AM   #49
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oh blarney.

time for this thing over Bushleaguer to end.
In all sincerity, shelve it.
PJ decided to shelve it...and perhaps that's best right now.
It's not a case of why or what or who's to blame or who's "selling out", etc. etc. The artists have control of their art, and this case epitomizes what is their rights.
Let it be, as McCartney said.
And in my opinion. Mr. Edward Vedder did not "impale" Bush's mask...pick it apart, strip it down as you please but it wasn't impaling.
Broaden your mind.
Think Bono a la Zoo TV. Think Bono a la bugging the shit out of the first George with the phone calls, with pizza deliveries and what not.
Eddie tried the theatrics along the same vein....whether you would like to admit to it or not...it's all the same. It's a freakin mask, for fooks sake. It's not actually Dubya's head. Get over it.
You know that annoying saying? That "Don't get yer panties in a bunch?"
Well...lmao...that applies to the Americans who can't handle Eddie's little theatric accompaniment to Bushleaguer.
Sorry...I'm just telling it like it is.
I don't normally come to this forum...in fact I avoid it like the freakin plague. But for this thread I had to cash in my 2 cents.
Peace y'all. No need to pick apart what already has been ripped a new asshole and then some.
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Old 05-11-2003, 10:30 AM   #50
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And in my opinion. Mr. Edward Vedder did not "impale" Bush's mask...pick it apart, strip it down as you please but it wasn't impaling.
Broaden your mind.
Think Bono a la Zoo TV. Think Bono a la bugging the shit out of the first George with the phone calls, with pizza deliveries and what not.
Eddie tried the theatrics along the same vein....whether you would like to admit to it or not...it's all the same. It's a freakin mask, for fooks sake. It's not actually Dubya's head. Get over it.
so by this theory, if i were to burn an effigy in a public place of, say, hillary clinton, because i don't agree her being the senator of new york when she isn't a new yorker, it would be just fine and dandy because hey, i'm not actually burning hillary clinton, it's just an effigy.

and as for bono on zoo tv... he really didn't actually bug the crap out of george h.w. bush... he bugged the crap out of the white house switchboard operators. and on top of that, bono's acts durring zoo tv were done in good fun. if eddie had just come out, danced around in the "mirrorball man" jacket, with the bush mask on, performed bu$hleaguer, and then went on to the next song, this debate would not even be going on. the only people who would have a problem with that would be the far right, and baisicly who the hell gives a crap about the far anything... left or right.

all this being said, i still applaud eddie for speeking his mind even when it's the minority opinion. that's a big part of the reason why i love the band. but eddie still has to realize a) freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence, and b) there's a line out there that when you cross it you're going to risk alienating your own fans... especially in a traditional republican strong hold like nassau county on long island.
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Old 05-12-2003, 08:56 AM   #51
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acty, I believe burning an effegy of Hillary Clinton to protest the fact that she is a non-New Yorker senator would be protected under the First Amendment. Same with burning a flag.
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Old 05-12-2003, 10:13 AM   #52
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but does that make it right? meetings of the kkk are protected under the first amendment, but does that make it right?
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:49 PM   #53
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well, it depends on your definition of "right." I don't think I would burn a flag but if someone else wants to do it, they can. And the KKK has a right to hold rallies -- and I have a right to show up and tell them to burn in hell.

Whether its right or wrong, the US protects it.
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Old 05-12-2003, 03:13 PM   #54
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but does that make it right? meetings of the kkk are protected under the first amendment, but does that make it right?
There is a difference between the KKK holding a meeting demanding that all Black people living in the United States leave the country/be killed/live seperately from white people, and a person burning a US flag, or a rock star attacking an effigy of the President.

Personally I dislike flag burning as a form of protest, simply because I don't believe it means anything at all. I much prefer forms of protest which demonstrate clearly what the protestor is opposing and give other people the opportunity to engage in discussion about the subject. Flag burning, to me, is pointless as it can too easily be mistaken for disagreeing with everything about the United States, rather than just what the individual wants to protest about.

That said, flag burning doesn't hurt anyone. It may offend people and it may annoy people, but it doesn't actually cause harm to them. In strong contrast to that, the actions of the KKK can cause real harm to people: they lead to a rise in racism which puts black people in danger of racist attacks and violence.
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Old 05-12-2003, 05:39 PM   #55
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Fizzie -- there are limits to what the KKK can do. But the fact that it can create racism is not one of them. A recent supreme court ruling ruled against cross burning -- even on your own property -- because it creates a level of intimidation [not racism], which is not protected under the First Amendment. The KKK can protest but not in certain areas. The Court also struck down a case in which the KKK asked to have a march through a Jewish neighborhood. Again, it was the intimidation factor, not the bigotry issue.

Sorry to be all legal anal on you all.

[and good point about flag burning Fizzie]
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Old 05-13-2003, 10:18 AM   #56
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can we get off political loopholes and just ask the very simple question... right or wrong?
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Old 05-13-2003, 10:32 AM   #57
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Fizzie -- there are limits to what the KKK can do. But the fact that it can create racism is not one of them. A recent supreme court ruling ruled against cross burning -- even on your own property -- because it creates a level of intimidation [not racism], which is not protected under the First Amendment. The KKK can protest but not in certain areas. The Court also struck down a case in which the KKK asked to have a march through a Jewish neighborhood. Again, it was the intimidation factor, not the bigotry issue.
Ah, I didn't know anything about legislation controlling where the KKK can hold rallies etc.

In the UK racist organisations (like the BNP) definitely do cause an increase in racism. For instance, in a town where they hold council seats there has been a 70% rise in racist attacks in the year since they were elected, and when the spoke at a college campus in this country there was a huge increase in the intimidation suffered by black and Asian students there. I know it's impossible to ban racist organisations, but I do think those facts illustrate why those organisations are so much more dangerous than something like flag burning or burning an effigy of a public figure.
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