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Old 08-19-2005, 01:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Yes or leprachaun toys/puppets, etc on Patrick's day.

Oh God my PC compass doesn't know where to turn.
Some of the Irish stereotyping does bug me every now and then....
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Old 08-19-2005, 01:59 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Irvine511
sorry, but i have no problems when the mascots are horrible, racist caricatures of Native Americans.

we would never accept the same cartooning of blacks, asians, and jews. why would we do that to Native Americans?
Excellent point.
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Old 08-19-2005, 03:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Will they ban the Fighting Irish? Some may find that a horrible stereotype of Irish people.
But it is the freely chosen symbol of a primarily Irish-American university, and leprechauns are not associated with anyone's national humiliation or dispossession *in the context of American history.*

(*This added after I recalled seeing a photo, several years back, of rock-tossing protesters being dragged away from a demonstration in Northern Ireland somewhere...wearing their "Fighting Irish" letter jackets with "Sinn Fein" stitched over the words "Notre Dame." Hmm, wonder if Notre Dame licensed the use of their logo for that...)
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Old 08-19-2005, 04:01 PM   #19
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For the most part I think this is overly PC, but some names like the Redskins could be seen as pretty racist. I think it depends on what Native American groups want, it should be up to them in the end. Someone else pointed out that Seminole tribes for the most part have no problem with it, and I don't see that many Irish-Americans upset with the Fighting Irish.
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Old 08-19-2005, 08:03 PM   #20
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This is soooo 1990's.
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Old 08-19-2005, 08:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Yes or leprachaun toys/puppets, etc on Patrick's day.

Oh God my PC compass doesn't know where to turn.
What? The Irish aren't about leprechauns? Oops.
Then how do you explain Bono?
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:16 AM   #22
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Originally posted by randhail
How is the name Seminole offensive? It's the name of their tribe. If anything Florida St is making more people aware of the tribe.
Exactly. Not to mention the state park, etc....will their names be changed too?
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Old 08-20-2005, 04:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Yes or leprachaun toys/puppets, etc on Patrick's day.
Here's the thing...usually these are people of Irish decent not-knowingly disrespecting their own heritage. I used to be quite offended when I would step out of my office to watch the St. Patrick's day parade in St. Paul, Minn.

Besides the usual Bud Lite Leprachaun hats worn with a NY Jets jersey or something awful like that, you would see people with masks depicting the "ape" charachterization found in NYC newspapers in the 1800s when large number of people came over during the Potato Famine. The "Irish Need Not Apply" discrimination. I realize it is part of the it is part of the history of the Irish-Americans, but when the guy is also drinking green Bud Lite...the meaning is lost.

Same thing with the Native American sports team mascots. Some white kid from suburban Chicago dancing around the basketball court or football field with "war paint" and feathers (Chief Illiniwek) while the drunk college kids do the "chop" - I feel the history and respect goes down the toilet. Sure, the kid is a talented gymnast and/or dancer...and has been trained to do the dance in a supposed ritual manner...but the "ritual manner" probably wasn't meant for a sporting event filled with drunkards.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
sorry, but i have no problems when the mascots are horrible, racist caricatures of Native Americans.

we would never accept the same cartooning of blacks, asians, and jews. why would we do that to Native Americans?
There was an artist in Minnesota (I think that's where they were from) who took the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo, and created similar caricatures of blacks, asians and jews. It was quite brilliant...and they looked downright offensive.
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Old 08-20-2005, 04:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoney!
Here's the thing...usually these are people of Irish decent not-knowingly disrespecting their own heritage. I used to be quite offended when I would step out of my office to watch the St. Patrick's day parade in St. Paul, Minn.

Besides the usual Bud Lite Leprachaun hats worn with a NY Jets jersey or something awful like that, you would see people with masks depicting the "ape" charachterization found in NYC newspapers in the 1800s when large number of people came over during the Potato Famine. The "Irish Need Not Apply" discrimination. I realize it is part of the it is part of the history of the Irish-Americans, but when the guy is also drinking green Bud Lite...the meaning is lost.

All good points, but it occurs to me, when you mock a stereotype (knowingly or otherwise) you lessen its power, in a sense. So I kind of think, in relation to those people wearing the ape masks, even though they might not always be aware of the history or context, in a sense they are participating in a process mocking not so much Irish people, but rather they are mocking stereotypes of Irish people which applied in the past. It could be seen that way, at least.

In a similar vein, the popular British satirical magazine in the Victorian era, 'Punch' , would regularly depict Irish peasants/farmers as having ape-like features. A friend of my family, who is English, once gave me a present of collected Punch cartoons, which included quite a few of the aforementioned Irish 'apeman' cartoons. Was I offended? To be honest, not really. I took it as a piece of cultural history. If a British magazine was publishing stuff like that in 2005, yes, of course I'd be offended, but you can't put the standards of 1890 to those of 2005 on an equal footing.

BUT, and here is the crux, the Irish are not in a position, at this point in history, of being a downtrodden or oppressed race or culture. We may have been to an extent in the past but not any more. In fact we're doing pretty well (Shhh, just don't tell anyone!!) So it's easy for someone like me, I guess, to dismiss the concerns of Native Americans regarding stereotypes of their culture when they are in a completely different position.
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Old 08-20-2005, 05:28 PM   #25
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I think the criteria should be changed to allow American Indian mascots only when the tribes have granted formal permission, as has happened in a few instances.

It's a delicate balance, but I do think that the Washington Redskins and the Cleveland Indians have pretty racist depictions of Native Americans. However, I do think it is possible to have Native American-inspired mascots that aren't offensive, as long as the tribe being used is alright with it.

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Old 08-20-2005, 07:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
BUT, and here is the crux, the Irish are not in a position, at this point in history, of being a downtrodden or oppressed race or culture. We may have been to an extent in the past but not any more. In fact we're doing pretty well (Shhh, just don't tell anyone!!) So it's easy for someone like me, I guess, to dismiss the concerns of Native Americans regarding stereotypes of their culture when they are in a completely different position.
That's a great point...they're not completely comparable. And we won't tell anyone.
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Old 08-20-2005, 08:37 PM   #27
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In fact only one small band of Seminoles, the "Seminole Tribe of Florida," agreed to officially approve the FSU mascot--and, not incidentally, that approval came only after FSU president Wetherell offered them an incentive package including 80% off tuition scholarships for "Seminole Scholars" to be recruited directly by FSU from the tribe.

Most of the Seminoles today live in Oklahoma, where their main reservation is. The "Seminole Tribe of Florida" is by far the smallest of the three bands left in Florida.


This may also be of some interest:

Quote:
The INTER-TRIBAL COUNCIL of the FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES
Organized February 3, 1950


Resolution No. 2001 - 08
THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES INTERTRIBAL COUNCIL MASCOT RESOLUTION


WHEREAS, the Intertribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes is an organization that united the tribal governments of the Chickasaw, Choctaw, Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), and Seminole Nations, representing over 400,000 Indian people throughout the United States; and

WHEREAS, the Intertribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes Education Committee is dedicated to promoting quality education for American Indian students that includes cultural awareness and a sense of diversity among America's student population; and

WHEREAS, the Five Civilized Tribes believe the use of derogatory American Indian images such as mascots by public schools perpetuate a stereotypical image of American Indians that is likely to have a negative impact on the self-esteem of American
Indian children; and

WHEREAS, negative images and stereotypes about American Indians as mascots contributes to a hostile learning environment that affirms the negative images and stereotypes that persist in America about American Indians; and

WHEREAS, American Indians as mascots is a negative means of appropriating and denigrating our cultural identity that involves the display and depiction of ceremonial symbols and practices that may have religious significance to American Indians; and

WHEREAS, to continue the negative use of American Indian's tribal names and images is an offensive and disgusting practice that would be considered intolerable were other ethnic groups or minorities depicted in a similar manner; and

WHEREAS, on April 13, 2001, the United States Commission on Civil Rights issued a Statement on the Use of Native American Images and Nicknames as Sports Symbols that called for an end to the use of American Indian images and team names by non-Indian schools; that stereotyping of any racial, ethnic, religious or other groups when promoted by public education institutions, teach all students that stereotyping of minority groups is acceptable, a dangerous lesson in a diverse society; that schools have a responsibility to educate their students; they should not use influence to perpetuate misrepresentations of any culture or people; and

NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Intertribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes joins the United States Commission on Civil Rights call to eliminate the stereotypical use of American Indian names and images as mascots in sports and other events and to provide meaningful education about real American Indian people, current American Indian issues, and, the rich variety of American Indian cultures in the U.S.


(Signed)
Bill Anoatubby, Governor, Chickasaw Nation
R. Perry Beaver, Principal Chief, Creek Nation
Chadwick Smith, Principal Chief, Cherokee Nation
Jerry Haney, Principal Chief, Seminole Nation
Gregory E. Pyle, Chief, Choctaw Nation


July 14, 2001
And a press release from the National Congress of Indian Nations regarding the NCAA decision:

Quote:
NCAI Applauds NCAA Decision to Ban Use of Indian Mascots in Postseason Activities
WASHINGTON, August 5, 2005

The National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) strongly supports a decision by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), banning the use of Indian mascots by sports teams in all postseason tournaments. More than 100 colleges and universities currently practice the offensive use of Indian mascots. Such depictions are inaccurate, unauthentic representations of the rich diversity and complex history of more than 560 Indian tribes in the United States and perpetuate racial and cultural stereotypes.

"This is a big step in the right direction," said NCAI President Tex Hall. "NCAI has been advocating for the NCAA to ban the use of Indian mascots and we are more than pleased about this decision. The ridicule, mockery and utter racism Native Americans are subject to because of the use of Indian mascots are intolerable."

The NCAA's executive committee made the decision, limiting the ban to postseason tournament play only. According to the NCAA ruling, nicknames or mascots deemed "hostile or abusive" would not be allowed by teams on their uniforms or other clothing beginning with any NCAA tournament after Feb. 1, 2006.

"The NCAA objects to institutions using racial/ethnic/national origin references in their intercollegiate athletics programs," said NCAA President Myles Brand when issuing the decision today. "Several institutions have made changes that adhere to the core values of the NCAA Constitution pertaining to cultural diversity, ethical sportsmanship and nondiscrimination. We applaud that, and we will continue to monitor these institutions and others."

Any postseason play at any of the schools that fall under the NCAA's "hostile or abusive" category will be banned from hosting postseason events. In addition, offensive logos also would be prohibited at postseason games on cheerleader, dance team and band uniforms starting in 2008.

"While this is ia positive move," said Hall. "NCAI continues to urge all schools and professional sports teams to end the use of racist mascots during the regular season or tournament play. We hope that in the future the uses of Indian mascots are discontinued in all sports arenas."

The NCAA decision follows the recent ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C., to revive a 1992 suit brought by Native Americans challenging the Washington Redskins' trademark of a racially derogatory mascot.
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Old 08-23-2005, 12:34 PM   #28
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The NCAA actually did something right

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- The NCAA will allow Florida State to use its Seminoles nickname in postseason play, removing the school from a list of colleges with Native American nicknames that were restricted by an NCAA decision earlier this month.

The NCAA said it was recognizing the relationship Florida State has long enjoyed with the Seminole Tribe of Florida, which assists the university with its pageantry and celebration of its culture and supports the school's use of its name.

"The staff review committee noted the unique relationship between the university and the Seminole Tribe of Florida as a significant factor," the NCAA said Tuesday. "The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree."

Florida State President T.K. Wetherell had threatened to sue the NCAA immediately after its Aug. 5 announcement that the school's highly visible nickname, "Seminoles," was defined as "hostile and abusive" by a committee.
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:28 PM   #29
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The NCAA actually did something right
You don't hear that often......
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:50 PM   #30
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I agree that the Native American mascot can be offensive and should be banned when not give permission (see FSU). I always felt a little uncomfortable when with my high school mascot being the Warriors and people dressed up as Native Americans running around with arrows and tomahawks.

But how far do we go with this? We've mentioned the Fighting Irish, but what about the Runnin' Rebels of UNLV?



Couldn't that offend people from the South or who have family members how fought in the Civil War? Where does it end?
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