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Old 02-17-2005, 02:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
hi. i'm an american who (mostly) agrees with you.

but i do ask you to distinguish between americans, and the american government.
we are very different.
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Old 02-17-2005, 02:57 PM   #17
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It isn't about Iraq as much as it is about Iran ~ the US does not want to take on Iran millitarily as that would be too costly but by removing both the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Baathists in Iraq then the plausibility of a popular uprising against the Mullah's suceeding is increased and over the next few years that pressure may come to a head.

This is ultimately not relevant, I posit that radical Islam exists as a political ideology that would use instability in the region to sieze power in numerous countries with the long term goal of creating a unified pan-Islamic state ~ of course we must also consider the religious and nationalist obstacles to this goal.

It emerged as the colonial powers came down, it has been involved in politics around the Muslim world represented by a wide variety of groups ~ it is not monolithic.

It is fostered by discontent at the repressive governments and in particular their treatment of these organisations and their members. They also coopt other causes to gain wider support ~ be they nationalistic like Chechnya or Aceh or broader issues such as western influence in the region or the existence of a Jewish nation in Muslim lands.

Disengagement from the region and leaving everything in the state that it is in will not solve anything, if America was to turn isolationist then the problems would only become worse as those very regimes gradually collapse and are replaced with governments of a slightly more religious bend. In addition Iran would develop nuclear weapons making the situation in the region a powder keg with millions of innocent lives hanging in the balance.

Engagement in the region through all avenues is the last best hope, war is not the answer to the problems of the region but it is neccessary to remove some obstacles to change (such as Saddam Hussein), encouragement of good governance through financial aid and diplomatic support (for the Palestinian Authority) ~ the terror sponsering regimes like the Baathists in Iraq and Syria (terrorism against Israeli's is still terrorism), terror funding countries like the Gulf Arab states; the exporters of global terrorism. Of course you cannot go out and topple each one ~ there are always concequences to actions, topple the Saudi Royal Family for instance and the global economy could collapse and a much more dangerous beast could emerge from the chaos. Measured actions must be taken but time is a factor, the longer that you wait the greater the risk of another even larger attack grows. If the chains to freedom are removed in the region the threat from the terrorists will be greatly diminished, without the funding and ideological support that they enjoy today such groups would wither and die.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:02 PM   #18
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I can only hope the Bush administration will be patient enough to not strike iran (unless of course they attack us but now we're getting too hypothetical) and that you're right that the people of the country will rise up so we're not sent in to do it.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:02 PM   #19
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of course i know, i was there just before the elections, and i happened to be in boston during the DNC AND some DNC delegates slept on my dorm room floor, and americans do rate amongst my top 3 favorite people too bad those guys couldnt get bush NOT elected this time.

its all good though. i like americans
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:04 PM   #20
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you better like americans.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:06 PM   #21
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yeah i do hope iran gets rid of those guys and there is real potential in the student movements there (never piss off the students ) and iran may have to change their ways.

i talked to an iranian journalist last year and he was very curious about how the world sees them (he was a supporter of the reforms) and although he wasnt very hopeful about his country's future, he said, 'we can only try'. i hope theyll even succeed.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
of course i know, i was there just before the elections, and i happened to be in boston during the DNC AND some DNC delegates slept on my dorm room floor, and americans do rate amongst my top 3 favorite people too bad those guys couldnt get bush NOT elected this time.

its all good though. i like americans

thanks, i do appreciate that. lots of time in europe has made me rather sensitive to the blatant stereotypes and sweeping generalizations that seem such a common part of discourse over there. (though it appears as if i've just made a generalizaiton myself ) it always surprises me when people feel free saying things about Americans that they would never, ever say about blacks, latinos, women, jews, and, heck, even gay people.

and we tried. we really did try to defeat bush. they simply beat us. i'm sorry.

haven't met too many turks, but i did go on a few dates with one. very swarthy. very.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:09 PM   #23
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yeah funny, i am kind of dating an american right now... but lets just not derail the thread
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
t always surprises me when people feel free saying things about Americans that they would never, ever say about blacks, latinos, women, jews, and, heck, even gay people.:
you know what you're right. i never thought about that.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:13 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
do you want us to fail in Iraq because you don't like our president?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but personally, I'm hoping I'm wrong about potential failures in Iraq that could happen as a result of everything that's been going on. My problem isn't so much that Iraq has a democracy, it's moreso the fact that the U.S. felt the need to enforce one on them, which kinda defeats the purpose of democracy to begin with. If they want a democracy, great, but they should've been the ones to decide on that, not us.

But yeah, I think there could be some problems down the road with this whole ordeal, but at the same time, I am sincerely hoping I'll be wrong, 'cause it'd be wonderful if a country in that region had some good things happen to it.

Angela
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:15 PM   #26
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well i think the reason is that americans are the easiest targets for prolonged rants and, well, practically, if you try hard enough, you can blame americans for ANYTHING from space junk to the slow and painful displacement of the north pole.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:20 PM   #27
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Buchanan is not advocating disengagement. He is advocating, using other avenues of ENGAGEMENT beside military strength and involvement in the region, which he attributes to be the MAIN cause of terrorism against the US.
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:22 PM   #28
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I do not know how you can change course from the direction we are heading in. Iran should have been the MAIN target after 9/11. Search the threads in here. There have been so many references and links to 9/11 and Iran, I cannot understand for the life of me why they were not #2 on our list after Afghanistan.

We have committed to Iraq, and we need to honor the obligations. God help us if we fail......
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Old 02-17-2005, 04:14 PM   #29
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A-wanderer - see the US is going to hell in a handbasket if I agree with Pat.
I do not like him on anyother issues by the way, I just agree with those particular sentiments. Dread, I agree he isn't preaching disengagement but diplomacy

I think we've backed off Iran to take down Syria instead, since God gave us that assassination.
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Old 02-17-2005, 04:21 PM   #30
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I don't think that there is going to be another war in the short to medium term ~ it is illogical to make such a move before Iraq is secure and US forces removed from that theatre. This does not exclude a smaller strike against Iranian nuclear facilities which does remain a very real possibility. I do not think that there will be a war with Syria, it is in nobody's interest for that to occur but some concerted diplomatic effort involving both the US and EU playing good cop / bad cop may yield the desired results of the Syrians getting out of Lebanon.

Iraq was a decaying regime rotten to the core, it was weak and could be toppled easily, both Iran and Syria are formidable opponents and they could each do a lot more damage than Iraq could. It is a moot point in the end, Saddam was removed and that source of instability is out of the picture ~ the situation has changed so we need to get over that. On other fronts diplomacy has served the US and EU quite well, for instance Libya coming in from the cold, the recent movements in the PA following Arafats death. The long term benefits of Iraq are yet to be seen, it is far too early to say that it was a positive or a negative action in the eyes of history. Iran is the mother of terror in the ME, it is a powerful country and without Iraq as a bulwark it is entirely concievable for the Iranians to sieze control of the gulf states while under a nuclear umbrella. An all out war will not be productive in Iran, there is already a significant part of the population who is fed up with the Mullah's, the US needs to court these groups (and do it properly with real support when push comes to shove, they fucked up Iraq big time after the first war by abandoning the Shiites and in the end they get the same situation as they would have in the 1990's ~ a Shiite dominated Iraq) and offer support for their ends be it political or economic. There are many means of using a nations power and the US uses all of them.
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