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Old 03-15-2005, 05:12 PM   #46
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Melon, I didn't even notice the things you noticed with the film. I'll have to look for those next time I watch it. The important thing to remember is that the film wasn't made even to be art, it was made for you and me to see Christ. To know him better. And...here comes the witnessing...you can know him without seeing the film by doing what I said earlier — seeking forgiveness of your sins, acknowledging the sacrifice Christ made and his resurrection, and accepting him as Lord of your life. Just call out to him. He listens. He listened to me. He still does...and I love him for it.
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:33 PM   #47
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We're talking the ultimate form of death here.
See this is the problem I have with people who glorify this movie. It's that no one can tell me exactly why.

We have some that say it tells the great story of Jesus. It didn't. The movie didn't even have much of a plot. So this argument holds no water.

Then we have others who, like this statement, thinks it's great because it shows the pain and suffering he endured. Well anyone who knows the story, even just the basics, know he suffered. Knows that dying with nails in your hands and being humiliated is pain and suffering that most couldn't go through.

But this is not the ultimate form of death. This is the problem with this movie. It explored the violence so much that it's tried to elevate it to the point where people think Jesus went through more than any other human. This is simply not true. Not only is it not true but it was never the intent or the reason for Jesus sacrificing his life.

There are people who are slowing dying over years of pain and suffering from disease, prisoners tortured for months before dying, victims of sick serial killers who've died from "inventive" means of stretching out their deaths as long as possible, and many others who've lived through and suffered more.

This is not the ultimate form of death, this is not an insight to what Jesus was thinking before dying, and no way is it a great story. This movie just has nothing redeeming. I think so many wanted "a great Jesus movie", and just settled for anything that would make it to the big screen.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:20 PM   #48
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BVS — Do I think this is the greatest movie ever made. Nope. Do I think it has flaws. Sure I do. Do I think it's a substitute or equal to the four Gospels? Of course not. It's still important to me as a Christian and to millions of others who saw it around the world. It's being "glorified" because it has told the story of the crucifixion in a more real way than has ever been done before. It's made it more real to people. But you're right, it's just a movie.
It does tell the great story of Jesus, and you're right, not the whole story. That was the whole point of it though. Gibson wanted people to go back and read the rest of the story themselves. He wanted them to have questions. It does however, tell the most important part of the story — Jesus came to die for our sins, he did so, and we can have eternal life through his sacrifice. It's all there. I'm not sure about your "no plot" comment. I think most people picked up on it. Besides, it wasn't supposed to be like every other movie anyway. It was supposed to be experienced, not so much told or watched.
As you know, the crucifixion is central to Christianity. A movie just about Christ's teachings would've made him out to be like any other person who claimed to be God.
The movie IS great because it showed the pain and suffering Christ endured. That was the point of it. Did Gibson do that to prove he could make a bloody movie? Of course not. Like I said, he wanted us to know Christ. He wanted us to understand him more and what he went through and the scope of the sacrifice. For me at least, it put my relationship with Christ in perspective. He died like that FOR me. He also died like that BECAUSE of me, or because of MY sins. It's one thing to hear it or read it, but seeing it woke me up (even though it wasn't exactly like he died).
Maybe calling it the "ultimate" form of death is a bit subjective. When you study everything that went into the crucifixion, it's easy to at least see it as one of the most horrific ways to go. The word "excruciating" actually means a pain "from the cross."
By calling it the "ultimate" form of death, I am in no way making light of other's demise. I guess you could simply say it's amazing that Christ, being both God and man, didn't just die of old age. He experienced torture and suffering and immense amounts of physical pain and humiliation. It's comforting to me that he went through that and knows some of the extreme pain we can feel here on earth. I know it's comforting to persecuted Christians around the world who are tortured for their beliefs to know their Lord went through it too.

Sorry that was so long.
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:55 PM   #49
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Coegman,

That's a little more honest.

But basically you're saying you needed 2 hours of seeing him tortured(because yes it lacked everything else as far as plot) to know that's the sacrifice he made, even though it may not be historicly accurate. So really you just needed to know he was tortured. A lot.

Ok that's being honest. And I'm not judging you.

But this is the problem I have. Without a plot, without accuracy it really comes down to a snuff film.

All I need to know is he died for me and didn't even know me. I don't care how. I don't care if it was quick and painless. All I need to know is he died. I would have perferred a film that showed why, when, who, what, and it didn't have to completely focus on the how.
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:24 PM   #50
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Hey BVS, that's totaly cool. If the film didn't work for you, that's fine. I never said anyone has to like it to be a Christian or to have a relationship with Christ. I'm glad to know you know that Christ died for you and that's enough. That's all that matters anyway!
Let me just add though that I don't need the flim (which didn't include 2 hours of torture, more like 45 minutes ) to know that Christ was tortured a lot. That's not what I'm saying. Like I said before, it simply helped me understand the sacrifice that was made for my sake.
I did a story a few years ago on a woman whose son was killed by a drunk driver, while he was being a designated driver himself. (They burried him on Christmas Eve.) She told me as gruesome as the details were, she had to know them because it helped her feel closer to her son. It helped her make sense of what happened. That's all I'm getting at. And that's just me.

In terms of the plot, it was taken right from the Bible! The story's there — he claimed to be God, the religious leaders thought this was blasphemous, he said "I am the way, the truth and the life, nobody gets to the Father, but through me," and he fortold his death, etc, etc. You know the story. Did it focus on Christ's whole life, no. That's not the point of it.
As far as accuracy, it was actually very accurate. The most accurate film of Christ to date. Yes, Gibson took creative liberties to tell the story visually, but they didn't take away from the historicity of it or what the Gospels tell us. The only part with accuracy I would bring up is that the crucifixion wasn't brutal enough according to what we know from historical texts. Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" goes into this in detail. (Amazing book by the way.)

In the end though, I think we can agree that it's just a film. It doesn't substitute for the Gospels and in no way does it come close to how we can know Christ through prayer and the Bible and through serving him. I'm just saying it was enriching for me.

Holy crap I'm rambling tonight.

Peace
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:59 PM   #51
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Wrong thread.
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Old 03-15-2005, 08:06 PM   #52
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That's cool, I understand what you are saying. I think I'm just one of those people that doesn't need it, but I know some people do. Me, I don't even take a look at open caskets, I want my last visual memory of them to be alive. But my mom needs every detail.

It's been awhile sense I've seen it. From what I remember it only takes place during the last 36 or 48 hours or something like that. My only thing with plot is that I tried to watch it from the point of view of not knowing the story, and it didn't quite work for me. It's like seeing any movie where you've already read the book, you notice the discrepencies but you don't always quite notice the holes. Well I noticed holes, and thought that this movie isn't really going to do anything for those who don't know the story.


I've only talked to one person who's seen the movie who doesn't really know the story. I mean they knew a guy was nailed to a cross and then rose again, but that's it. His comment was that none of the stuff leading up to the crucifiction made a lot of sense to him and that he was shocked that the resurection played such a small part. His comment "isn't the fact that this man rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven like a large part of your beliefs?" My reply
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:07 AM   #53
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St. John the Damascene writes in Treatise 1 on the Divine Images:
"How therefore shall we not depict in images what Christ our God endured for our salvation and his miracles, so that, when my son asks me, what is this? I shall say that God the Word became human and through him not only did Israel cross over the Jordan, but our whole nature was restored to ancient blessedness, through which that nature has ascended from the lowest parts of the earth beyond every principality and is seated on the very throne of the Father."

found this at http://www.livejournal.com/users/chaz_lehmann/
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:09 AM   #54
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I see your point BVS. I guess we just have different perspectives. Thanks for the discussion though.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:42 AM   #55
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just pondering some things ... due to the nature of religion, and the central role a belief system plays in someone's life, do you think it's possible for a Christian -- and here, let's use it to mean one who identifies as Christian, as in, it would make one of your Top 5 Words used to describe yourself -- to evaluate this movie on filmmaking alone?

it seems to me that reactions to this movie are hugely split upon religious identification. Christians seem to view it as akin to a Schindler's List for Christianity -- a document of how horrible it was, and why it's so important. for non-Christians, it appears to be more of a rather cruel film who's violence is not justified.

but is it a good movie? or is that not the point? is this a movie that can be viewed objectively, or is it by nature impossible to do so?
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:50 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it seems to me that reactions to this movie are hugely split upon religious identification. Christians seem to view it as akin to a Schindler's List for Christianity -- a document of how horrible it was, and why it's so important. for non-Christians, it appears to be more of a rather cruel film who's violence is not justified.
I would say for the most part, this is pretty accurate. Let's not forget though that there are some Christians who aren't touched by the movie and are turned off by the fact that it's strictly about Christ's last 12 hours before the crucifixion; and there are even some non-Christians, like Monica Bellucci for example, who found this movie to be a great story. I don't know if it's fair to use someone who was in the cast as an example, but yet, even some horror film websites were applauding it.

For most people, they don't watch it to be entertained, that's for sure.
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Old 03-16-2005, 09:54 AM   #57
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Of course it can be viewed objectively. It's just a movie. I thought it was well done, but I'll admit, maybe I brought in certain feelings or whatever that many other people didn't, you know? I didn't see it as a movie like I see other movies. I wasn't going in to be entertained. I was going in to experience it. There were parts I didn't like. I thought the "teardrop" falling from the sky when Christ died was corny and should be left to corny Creed videos. There were other things I didn't like, but they were simply Gibsons's story telling techniques. I thought it was a beautiful movie though. Maybe I'll have different views when I see it again. I'll be honest though, since you mentioned it, Schindler's List is a much better flim.
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Old 03-16-2005, 11:50 AM   #58
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but yet, even some horror film websites were applauding it.

This should tell you something.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:25 PM   #59
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OK< so the first I heard about the island was in EW. I'm glad that was false, I'm glad it;s just an island.

And yes, I did the film, and for me, the s most indelible images of the film were Cavielzel weeping on the cross, the charming interplay between Jesus and Mary when she told him to wash his hands after working, and Ciaphas leering up at the cross.
Go back and watch the film, it is in there.
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Old 03-16-2005, 01:27 PM   #60
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Me, I don't even take a look at open caskets, I want my last visual memory of them to be alive. But my mom needs every detail.
I grew up with open caskets. I think there's something wrong if the casket is closed...lol.

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