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Old 11-07-2001, 11:32 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bathtime Fun Whortense:
rush limbaugh, if we were alive during nazi germany:

"now, you know, those liberals are gonna come up one day and say that we've killed all the jews..."
Let the rest of the forum note that Whortense just associated conservatism with Nazism.

Whortense, my opinion of you was already eroding before you said this. I now find your political beliefs to be completely worthless. You are an idiot and a demagogue, and I simply not going to engage you further in any sort of political discussion.
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Old 11-08-2001, 12:27 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Let the rest of the forum note that Whortense just associated conservatism with Nazism.
let this forum note that bubba wouldn't know a metaphor even if it ran into him like a freight train.

Quote:
Whortense, my opinion of you was already eroding before you said this. I now find your political beliefs to be completely worthless. You are an idiot and a demagogue, and I simply not going to engage you further in any sort of political discussion.
what a complete and utter cop out. rather than going to the rest of my points, you go to, count this, one metaphor regarding my point that, ahem:

"it's funny that if a republican warns you ahead of time of these accusations, it somehow negates the truth."

perhaps it's a tasteless metaphor. i would perhaps have been better to substitute rush limbaugh for pat robertson, who has openly denied the existence of the holocaust.

"Let the rest of the forum note that Whortense just associated conservatism with Nazism."

well, you don't need me to say that, which i didn't (blowing me more out of proportion than a clinton impeachment trial). pat said it a long time ago.

since you wish to be blunt in personally insulting me, i will not hesitate to be blunt myself. you are a sheer coward, for, in the face of surmounting political argument i have given before you, you have resorted to personal insults and, count again, one metaphor.

you are incredibly hopeless. it is my utter hope that republicans like u2bama are better representative of the republican party rather than you.

and if you try and ban me for what i've stated here, let the forum note that i've saved this thread to my hard drive, and that bubba resorted to personal attacks, rather than continue arguments.

allow me to repeat once again for those who didn't catch it:

Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
You are an idiot and a demagogue
likewise, as you forced me to apologize for stepping too far in that last michael moore thread, which i honestly and sincerely meant, i am expecting an equally honest and sincere apology for this incident. you know my e-mail address. now send it, and i will forget about this little incident. otherwise, you've opened a pandora's box i'm not sure you want to see the contents of.

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[This message has been edited by Bathtime Fun Whortense (edited 11-07-2001).]
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Old 11-08-2001, 01:26 AM   #33
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From your last post:


let this forum note that bubba wouldn't know a metaphor even if it ran into him like a freight train.


perhaps it's a tasteless metaphor. i would perhaps have been better to substitute rush limbaugh for pat robertson, who has openly denied the existence of the holocaust.

"Let the rest of the forum note that Whortense just associated conservatism with Nazism."

well, you don't need me to say that, which i didn't (blowing me more out of proportion than a clinton impeachment trial). pat said it a long time ago.



So... it was a metaphor, and yet, you state twice that it is more than a metaphor.

You imply that, because the idiot Robertson denies the Holocaust, mainstream conservative Republicans are philosophical kin to Nazis.

A metaphor? I don't think so.


I can in fact debate you on your entire reply, but I simply refuse to do so, on the basis that you have again implied that my political beliefs are in line with Nazism.

Am I blowing this out of proportion? No, because you're equating my political beliefs WITH THOSE OF ADOLPH HITLER.

Attaching my beliefs to Nazism for a second time further demonstrates that you ARE an idiot and a demagogue.

I will NOT apologize, especially given your backhanded explanation about your "metaphor".

I won't delete or suspend your account, but, as far as I'm concerned, you can go to hell.
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Old 11-08-2001, 01:34 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Yeah, David Denkins did WONDERS for that city, huh?
That's Dinkins.

A New Yorker,

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Old 11-08-2001, 01:37 AM   #35
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Oh, and one more thing. His name is Mark Green.

CK ejumakating the masses.
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Old 11-08-2001, 01:39 AM   #36
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I'm a democrat. I voted for Bloomberg. He gave me $500.

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Old 11-08-2001, 03:48 AM   #37
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Man, that list was thought-provoking when I first saw it -- eight years ago.

(Thanks also for adding in your two cents, Se7en. Brilliant observations.)

This list (first generated by the ironically named "Fairness in Accuracy in Reporting", I believe) is about the only documentation I've ever seen chronicling the horrors of Rush Limbaugh, and it's fairly unsuccessful:

In the first case, a few of the comments are jokes. Rush admits to using humor, and occasionally he may cross the line of good taste. But so does Bill Maher.

(Of the ten comments posted, that takes care of two of them -- the "gay turning his back" and the "Mexican in the marathon" comments.)

Other comments may be taken *completely* out of context, specifically when I recall Rush's main points about certain aspects of our culture. The "Homeless Olympics" was probably in response to some of the bizarre things the liberal homeless advocacy has tried in the name of "helping the homeless", including giving them shopping carts and showing them videos on how to properly "dumpster dive" for food. It's "illustrating absurdity by being absurd". The "poverty line" comment, if it's in the context that I've heard it before, was made about the level of poverty in the US compared to the Third World; we have the richest poor in the world, including many who own a car, several TVs, and a refigerator, and that's "not so bad".

(That eliminates another two, leaving six.)

And the Strom Thurmond comment doesn't offend me nearly as much as it apparently offended the makers of this list. Thurmond's values do match those of a lot of people of his time (that's why he got elected) and of this time (that's why he's been re-elected so often). And while his comment about homosexuality not being normal may be offensive to some, it's not from out of nowhere. The Bible seems to condemn the practice in several places, and homosexuality certainly doesn't use the practices of sexual reproduction towards any contiuance of this species.

With that comment taken care of, that leaves five statements.

Some of those comments may make sense in context -- or be factually true. Even if they aren't, we have five instances in about six years (1988-1993) in which Rush made a factual error or simply shot his mouth off.

With approximately 4,500 hours at their disposal, Rush's political enemies come up with this list of grievances?

Pathetic.

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Old 11-08-2001, 03:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:

(Thanks also for adding in your two cents, Se7en. Brilliant observations.)


hey now....

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Old 11-08-2001, 07:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
So... it was a metaphor, and yet, you state twice that it is more than a metaphor.

You imply that, because the idiot Robertson denies the Holocaust, mainstream conservative Republicans are philosophical kin to Nazis.

A metaphor? I don't think so.
whatever... it's a metaphor. i'm telling you that now. "i don't think so?" too bad. you're wrong. period.

you couldn't quite understand my little bit about, ahem:

"it's funny that if a republican warns you ahead of time of these accusations, it somehow negates the truth."

so i made a metaphor that's easily understood. anyone who bothers to put time in this forum will realize i use world war ii quite often as metaphors, because, quite simply, people don't know their history enough for me to use other metaphors.

i will make no secret that i hate rush limbaugh. it's quite obvious you must worship him or something, so it pains you for me to criticize him. too bad. learn to think for yourself. i haven't listened to a "liberal commentator" in years. and i can debate circles around people, because, quite simply, all that i say comes from me, not someone else.

Quote:
I can in fact debate you on your entire reply, but I simply refuse to do so, on the basis that you have again implied that my political beliefs are in line with Nazism.
i don't believe you. you can't debate my entire reply. hence, you're resorting dismissing your opponent as an extremist. a very rush-worthy response, because he's not exactly the brightest apple to fall from the tree either. i'm calling your bluff.

Quote:
Am I blowing this out of proportion? No, because you're equating my political beliefs WITH THOSE OF ADOLPH HITLER.
and you've equated liberalism with communism more than once. and, no, i'm not equating your beliefs with adolf hitler. but i know how you are. because you've deemed it, it's done, no matter how hard one will say to the contrary. plus, you're trying to divert attention to give the allusion you're the "dominant" one in this debate. another republican tactic, one that, contrary to most republican tactics, i admire, but i also don't hesistate to call people on it.

Quote:
Attaching my beliefs to Nazism for a second time further demonstrates that you ARE an idiot and a demagogue.
cry me a river. if you can't take the heat in this forum, then do everyone a favor and stick to lemonade stand.

if i remember correctly, since september 11th, you've equated liberals to "terrorist-symathizers" and went on a bit of a mccarthy-style tirade, labelling the one opponent to the war in congress a "communist" (making sure, of course, to put "communist" in large capital letters). as soon as you denigrated to demagogery yourself, i should have dismissed you.

Quote:
I will NOT apologize, especially given your backhanded explanation about your "metaphor".
considering that you never apologize to anyone on this forum, i wouldn't expect it anyway. to quote that bible quote that's often thrown at me, "pride before the fall."

besides, you'd have failed the second rule of the republican diversion tactic:

rule 1: dismiss your opponent an extremist if you can't debate him/her on virtues of the actual debate

rule 2: never back down and never apologize

Quote:
I won't delete or suspend your account, but, as far as I'm concerned, you can go to hell.
an excellent cop-out. when you're ready to debate like a mature adult, then come back to free your mind. good bye.

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Old 11-08-2001, 09:09 AM   #40
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I'm getting sick of this bibartisan bullshit. Do you people ever cross party lines or are you so brainwashed by your party's so called ideals that you only vote based on whether you see an elephant or a donkey.

I've voted for both in the past.....

A democrat who voted for Guiliani and Bloomberg,

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Old 11-08-2001, 09:41 AM   #41
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What would happen in an election if all the parties got the same ammount of money to spend on their campaign? Would the results have been the same in NY?
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Old 11-08-2001, 09:48 AM   #42
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No longer lol'ing at this thread.
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Old 11-08-2001, 10:32 AM   #43
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Again, IF it was a metaphor, you wouldn't have mentioned Robertson (twice) in an attempt to actually link mainstream conservatism with Nazism. Or should I simply ignore that part of your post in favor of your more compelling argument of "whatever"?

The case can be made that Robertson is either a moron or a Nazi. But if you look at the way mainstream conservatives criticized him for his stupid post-9/11 comments and the way most of them ignored before then, you can't use that to associate mainstream conservatism and Nazism. You're going to have to find more compelling evidence -- which I contend does not exist.

True, I have made comparisons between liberalism and Communism -- not the violence of Stalinism, but the state-controlled economy that defines all Communism. Why have I made such a comparison? Because the liberal solution to most problems is more government control. This is at very least a socialist agenda, and the logical conclusion to socialism IS Communism.

It would be like saying the logical conclusion to conservatism is anarchy. Both observations are a bit extreme, but they both have a basis in reality...

...unlike linking conservatism with Nazism.

I didn't suggest liberals were terrorist sympathizers -- I suggested PACIFISTS were sympathizers, and it happened that most pacifists have been liberals; most who have called for us to do nothing militarily have been from the other side of the aisle.

That caused an uproar, so I apologized and explained myself: certainly most pacifists do not agreee with the terrorists, but their call for military inaction played right into the hands of the terrorists and would allow them to strike again. The end result of a successful pacifist demonstration would have been a success for the terrorist cause.

Finally, I did call Barbara Lee a Communist. I also called her a traitor, but I explained why: she aided a Communist country's efforts to build an airfield - considered to be a threat to national security - AND worked directly with that country, presenting a draft of a speech to them for approval.

As extreme as I have been, I have - sometimes from the beginning, sometimes with further clarification - explained EXACTLY why I used those labels. I genuinely believe that they fit.

If you honestly see a link between Nazism and conservatism, you'd better start explaining in at least as much detail as I have done. You ought to be able to; after all, you can "debate circles" around me.

Finally, I have apologized when I've overreacted or stepped on too many toes. And I would apologize now if I thought I overreacted here -- if I thought it WAS merely a metaphor.

(Again, your Robertson comments prove otherwise. I believe that, when it comes down to it, you believe the "metaphor". I am thus NOT overreacting, and I will not apologize.)

For someone who remembers everything else I've apparently said, you should have also recalled my occasional apologies.

Instead, you say that I NEVER apologize, throwing around the "pride before the fall" quote, and suggesting that I don't apologize because I'm conservative.

You say I've never apologized, which is clearly a lie and an attempt to tarnish my reputation.

Why again is "demagogue" too harsh a description for you?

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 11-08-2001).]
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Old 11-08-2001, 02:45 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Again, IF it was a metaphor, you wouldn't have mentioned Robertson (twice) in an attempt to actually link mainstream conservatism with Nazism. Or should I simply ignore that part of your post in favor of your more compelling argument of "whatever"?
*ding*

now i see where the misunderstanding is. i don't consider robertson or nazism to be representative of the theoretical conservatism you have quoted to me. both are extremists in the right-wing paradigm. while nazism is still relegated to extremism to the point that everyone agrees, robertson is still an important force in the political arena. if you deny this, you are kidding yourself! yes, it is true that you and other conservatives finally recognized his extreme nature after those incindiary remarks he made with falwell on 'the 700 club.' however, he is still a major political force within conservatism--albeit, an extreme faction outside the mainstream--that needs to be dealt with.

you still need examples? then why did bush speak at the extremist bob jones university? i do not think this university does represent mainstream conservatism, but extremism still holds a troublesome place in the republican party.

Quote:
The case can be made that Robertson is either a moron or a Nazi. But if you look at the way mainstream conservatives criticized him for his stupid post-9/11 comments and the way most of them ignored before then, you can't use that to associate mainstream conservatism and Nazism. You're going to have to find more compelling evidence -- which I contend does not exist.
i never tried to make such a connection with mainstream conservatism. however, i still believe that there is a troublesome extremist conservative element within the republican party.

Quote:
True, I have made comparisons between liberalism and Communism -- not the violence of Stalinism, but the state-controlled economy that defines all Communism. Why have I made such a comparison? Because the liberal solution to most problems is more government control. This is at very least a socialist agenda, and the logical conclusion to socialism IS Communism.
liberals and conservatives use government control to their bidding. to generalize, liberals advocate regulation regarding business practices and deregulation regarding social practices. conservatives advocate deregulation regarding business practices and regulation regarding social practices. the theoretical base you attributed to conservativism was actually libertarianism, which advocates deregulation regarding business practices and deregulation regarding social practices. the last faction would be authoritarianism, which advocates regulation on business practices and regulation on social practices.

socialism is not communism. i need only look to socialist democracies in europe to show you that is not the case. not all socialist nations are riddled with poverty and authoritarian rule, like commonly associated with the soviet union, china, and cuba.

socialist democracy, in practice, recognizes that certain industries are too essential to be subject to the inherent greed and cutthroat mentality that is within competitive capitalism. france, for example, controls the railroads and the utility companies, as these are deemed essential industries for the whole of society. in practice, this should mean that these should be run as non-profit industries, neither making a profit, nor making a debt. of course, i will admit that this is not always the case, and that should be dealt with swiftly.

privatization of certain key industries only leads to chaos. look at california for an example. the utilities were privatized, and, all of a sudden, we are hearing about power shortages. what happened? in the supply / demand curves, the companies deemed that too much supply was given out, hence, it wasn't profitable. so, as later discovered, the companies were whining shortages demanding higher prices, when, in fact, it was discovered that they were running well under capacity in too many instances. private industry was trying to gouge the consumer in the name of profit. likewise, as one of the utilities declared bankruptcy, it was noted that the parent company had been siphoning off millions from the utility back into the parent company.

in an ideal world, deregulation would work, but it does not in all instances. the cable industry is a similar example to above, as, upon deregulation in the 1980s, prices skyrocketed and quality suffered. i do not live in the theoretical world, bubba. the theoretical conservatism does make sense, but, in practice, it does not work.

Quote:
It would be like saying the logical conclusion to conservatism is anarchy. Both observations are a bit extreme, but they both have a basis in reality...

...unlike linking conservatism with Nazism.
i think i've adequately commented on the conservatism / nazism connection.

Quote:
I didn't suggest liberals were terrorist sympathizers -- I suggested PACIFISTS were sympathizers, and it happened that most pacifists have been liberals; most who have called for us to do nothing militarily have been from the other side of the aisle.
and that's better? you can criticize their actions and bring them to submission, but to label them "terrorist sympathizers" is equivalent to your accusation that i am a demagogue--"a leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace." isn't that exactly what you did there, bubba?

i am certainly not immune to fits of histrionics in debate, and now i wish i had crafted my metaphor better. but you cannot deify yourself regarding these fits. you have them too.

Quote:
That caused an uproar, so I apologized and explained myself: certainly most pacifists do not agreee with the terrorists, but their call for military inaction played right into the hands of the terrorists and would allow them to strike again. The end result of a successful pacifist demonstration would have been a success for the terrorist cause.
and, similarly, my metaphor was created to show the ludicrousness of believing everything rush limbaugh says as "true." and, fyi, i do not think of rush as part of "mainstream conservatism." that's a distinction you must make, considering my attitudes.

Quote:
Finally, I did call Barbara Lee a Communist. I also called her a traitor, but I explained why: she aided a Communist country's efforts to build an airfield - considered to be a threat to national security - AND worked directly with that country, presenting a draft of a speech to them for approval.
likewise, american businesses have been using china to launch satellites, as it is cheaper, and it is thought that china has intercepted sensitive technology as a result. are they traitorous now too? because i surely think so. but that's what you get with deregulation.

if what you say is true above regarding barbara lee--and i haven't done enough research on her--it still doesn't mean she is a communist, which you obviously used in a connotation to assume that everyone opposed to the war must be a treasonous extremist. i would definitely like to read about the entire situation and find out the context as to why lee did this.

Quote:
As extreme as I have been, I have - sometimes from the beginning, sometimes with further clarification - explained EXACTLY why I used those labels. I genuinely believe that they fit.
read more of my posts. i shove facts and statistics all through them. most of the posts you have given regarding the debate is theory, not practice. you still haven't adequately responded to my last major post in the debate, where i shoved it full of facts and statistics. you preferred, on the other hand, to harp on one metaphor that i should have phrased much differently on my part.

Quote:
If you honestly see a link between Nazism and conservatism, you'd better start explaining in at least as much detail as I have done. You ought to be able to; after all, you can "debate circles" around me.
how many times must i tell you? i don't think there is a link. likewise, there isn't a link between liberalism and communism.

Quote:
Finally, I have apologized when I've overreacted or stepped on too many toes. And I would apologize now if I thought I overreacted here -- if I thought it WAS merely a metaphor.
i am not angered by the debate. i am angered that you went way off tangent, attempting to cast me 1) as an "idiot," and 2) as a "demagogue." that's what i want the apology for, changing it from a debate on merits into personal attacks. you nearly banned me for stepping too far, and now i think you have stepped too far, but now you are above criticism for it. my demand for a formal and sincere apology still stands, and i will forget about it once you do so.

Quote:
(Again, your Robertson comments prove otherwise. I believe that, when it comes down to it, you believe the "metaphor". I am thus NOT overreacting, and I will not apologize.)
i will tell you until i'm blue in the face that it's simply a metaphor. i hate robertson and limbaugh completely, and i see both of them as extremists, but not necessarily nazis. the metaphor is an attempt for you to understand why it is important not to simply assume that what someone says is true. so i took your demi-god, limbaugh, and put highly inflammatory rhetoric done in the same fashion as his rhetoric against liberals to emphasize why i think his statements are logical fallacies to assume true. i do not believe that either limbaugh or mainstream conservatism believes in nazism. as for robertson, he's too scary to categorize, but, luckily, you recognize his extremist elements. it is my hope that other conservatives have recognized this as well for the long term.

Quote:
For someone who remembers everything else I've apparently said, you should have also recalled my occasional apologies.

Instead, you say that I NEVER apologize, throwing around the "pride before the fall" quote, and suggesting that I don't apologize because I'm conservative.

You say I've never apologized, which is clearly a lie and an attempt to tarnish my reputation.
oh and trying to dismiss me as an "idiot" and "demagogue" isn't an attempt to tarnish my reputation as well? what the hell did that have to do with the merits of the debate?

Quote:
Why again is "demagogue" too harsh a description for you?
because i back what i say with necessary factual and logical evidence. what you've stated, mostly, is emotional and theoretical evidence. you don't like pacifists? "terrorist sympathizers." you don't like barbara lee's opposition to the war? "communist" and "traitor." you don't like me? "idiot" and "demagogue."

in fact, quite honestly, the title of "demagogue"--a leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace--suits you more than i on the basis of what you have written.

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Old 11-08-2001, 02:54 PM   #45
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I think both of you should just ignore each other. It's obvious you dont agree on each others views and must resort to name calling, bashing, etc. I have decided to ignore a certain person that I had problems with constantly, and my life on the forum is a hell of a lot easier.

Bubba you should close this thread and forget about it. I'd do it but I dont want to step on your toes.

My 2 cents.

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