Spiral_Staircase
War Child
sorry, I should have said "exactly what I was thinking." Sometimes I think inaccurate things.
parallels of europe before 1933 and now in 02
- Thread starter Zoomerang96
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Anthony
Refugee
That is indeed, correct, Salome.
However, I do not think that it will discourage HIS party and the others to rally for their own cause, this very incident is the point; he has become a martyr. A crucified Messiah before the sermon on the mount.
Ant.
However, I do not think that it will discourage HIS party and the others to rally for their own cause, this very incident is the point; he has become a martyr. A crucified Messiah before the sermon on the mount.
Ant.
OP
OP
Zoomerang96
ONE love, blood, life
agreed.
i also agree with the martyr bit.
------------------
-deathbear
[This message has been edited by Zoomerang96 (edited 05-06-2002).]
Anthony
Refugee
Tony Blair expresses his horror everytime someone argues with him, the man is always horrified. And as wise as his comment may be, some feelings are simply too strong to be expressed in a voting booth.
Ant.
Anthony
Refugee
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
Unbelievable!
Who could do such a thing? What is happening here?
I mean, you could disagree with him (many did), but shooting him? How insane can you get?
Martijn
You're actually surprised?
Ant.
Salome
you are what you is
he has become a human being who has been murdered because of his opinions
he never had anything to do with Le Pen, De Winter or other right wing parties
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
Salome
you are what you is
the netherlands are a democracy you know?
what was the last time a politician has been murdered in a democracy
and not even because of his point of view on one particular subject but because of his opinions in general
people in the netherlands aren't surprised but shocked
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
[This message has been edited by Salome (edited 05-06-2002).]
Anthony
Refugee
Except that he, like Le Pen, blamed a lot of the country's problems on imigrants, and was very much in favour of abolishing such immigration. Apart from being extreme right-wingers, they both had very similar policies. They may not have been in connection directly, but politically they are quite a resemblance. There are wider issues in question besides one man dying.
Ant.
Popmartijn
Blue Crack Supplier
Yes, I AM surprised that someone could get it in his head to shoot him. I mean, you could disagree with the man (quite rightly so on many points), but murder him because of his opinions? I'd never expected this to happen here.
Martijn
Salome
you are what you is
he isn't dying he has been murdered
about every political parties in the netherlands recognises that we need to do something about our immigration legislations
I don't know what that tells you about us, but it is the truth
our laws re. immigration are far less restrictive then in other european countries
he was a populist
putting him in a group with the european right wing doesn't sound right to me
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
about every political parties in the netherlands recognises that we need to do something about our immigration legislations
I don't know what that tells you about us, but it is the truth
our laws re. immigration are far less restrictive then in other european countries
he was a populist
putting him in a group with the european right wing doesn't sound right to me
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
Anthony
Refugee
When a humble writer such as Salman Rushdie can be granted a 'fatwa' all becuase of ONE line in one of his many books, I don't find it suprising that a man who called the entire Islamic culture a backward culture was assasinated before the elections.
If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone.
Ant.
If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone.
Ant.
Anthony
Refugee
Oh, so he WASN'T a right-winger?
Ant.
Ant.
Salome
you are what you is
I fail to see the similarities
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
Anthony
Refugee
The similarity is this; you can kill anybody. And when a person is calling a group of people backward, its bound to piss people off.
Ant.
DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I don't think the concept of martyrdom is embedded in the Dutch culture. I think his political party will wither away eventually considering the fact most people don't even know the name of the #2 on the list.
Salome
you are what you is
one of the reasons why I refrain from an opinion about people like Limbaugh, Moore etc etc is because I know near to nothing about these people
maybe read some articles (usually just 1 or 2 statements in or out of context) + some opinions on this forum
------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
Anthony
Refugee
Very subtle. However, I have been reading on him and recently, the British media has been very concerned with his sudden popularity, along with Le Pen's individual case, from what I saw, he was quite right-wing. And please now, I distinguish between right-wing and Fascism. After all, we have lots of right-wing politicians in Britain, and they are not fascists (with the exception of Margaret Thatcher and her followers).
Ant.
DrTeeth
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Ant, Pim Foruyn was a right-winger within the Dutch political spectrum but wasn't as right as Le Pen, de Winter or Haider. He wasn't a racist and he wasn't a fascist either.
Anthony
Refugee
Thanks, DrTeeth, however, I don't think a person who states (in his own words) that an Islamic culture is a backward culture is not a racist.
He may not have been one officially, however, the British National PArty aren't officially racist, either. Neither is Le Pen.
I don't think he was liberal in his opinions, and I woulnd't call him tolerant, either.
Ant.
Popmartijn
Blue Crack Supplier
The problem with the image of his party was not Fortuyn (or many of the others on his list) but with the people who want(ed) to vote for him. You can say that he was on the right of the political spectrum, but he clearly wasn't extreme right (as those other figures that are mentioned here: Le Pen, Haider and De Winter).
BTW, I just read that, among other politicians, Blair has also expressed his horror with this murder (saying something like, and I'm trying to paraphrase, "Whatever feelings politicians may cause, the only way to express them is in the voting booth")
Martijn
BTW, I just read that, among other politicians, Blair has also expressed his horror with this murder (saying something like, and I'm trying to paraphrase, "Whatever feelings politicians may cause, the only way to express them is in the voting booth")
Martijn
bullet the blue sky
Refugee
Going back to the original question posed, to even suggest that Europe now is anywhere near a political parallel to 1933 or before is a total insult to those that lived back then.
OP
OP
Zoomerang96
ONE love, blood, life
i dont think so.
though im not as familiar as someone who actually lives in europe, with their politics, i think its fair to compare.
though comparing in general is useless for no two situations are ever worth comparing, unless all parties discussing the issue are fully aware of the differences and complexities from subject a to subject b.
its never the same.
------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.
though im not as familiar as someone who actually lives in europe, with their politics, i think its fair to compare.
though comparing in general is useless for no two situations are ever worth comparing, unless all parties discussing the issue are fully aware of the differences and complexities from subject a to subject b.
its never the same.
------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.
Popmartijn
Blue Crack Supplier
I think the comparison is not only an insult to those who suffered then, but also to the people in Europe today. Again, there is no comparison. The social and economical situation is vastly different now as is the (unfortunate) violence that is happening now.
Here is an article in The Economist (again) explaining the situation. As you can see, the situation is no different in Europe as it is in the USA.
C ya!
Marty
------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends
Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
Here is an article in The Economist (again) explaining the situation. As you can see, the situation is no different in Europe as it is in the USA.
C ya!
Marty
------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends
Spearhead - People In Tha Middle
Anthony
Refugee
I don't think its an insult to compare at all. This 'insult' stigma is really quire irrelevant to the heart of the situation; of what use is history if we don't use it to prevent the worst from happening in the future?
My grandfather, God bless his soul, fought in to wars, the Second World War and the Spanish Civil War, and he was always comparing then to now and vice versa. Once you live through something like that, you DO compare, its the only way you learn anything. Atleast, thats what he told me.
So, while I'm not party with this 'insult' business, and think that Europe, like ANY instititute or body in the world, should constantly be criticised and subjected to comparisons; I do NOT believe there is a similarity with what happpened then. Its not an insult to compare, just a bit too far-fetched.
Ant.
My grandfather, God bless his soul, fought in to wars, the Second World War and the Spanish Civil War, and he was always comparing then to now and vice versa. Once you live through something like that, you DO compare, its the only way you learn anything. Atleast, thats what he told me.
So, while I'm not party with this 'insult' business, and think that Europe, like ANY instititute or body in the world, should constantly be criticised and subjected to comparisons; I do NOT believe there is a similarity with what happpened then. Its not an insult to compare, just a bit too far-fetched.
Ant.
Similar threads
