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Old 04-19-2006, 05:08 AM   #16
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Old 04-19-2006, 10:20 AM   #17
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Perhaps we could stay on topic, your assertion that Israel is less secure today doesn't gell with the decrease in successful bombings over the last few years.


no.

my assertion is that the invasion of Iraq has not increased Israel's security, and that whatever form the new Iraqi government takes, oil money will still be used to fund Hamas and Hezbollah.

this is another failure of the occupation.

in the interest of staying on topic, i'll ignore STING's response, though his claims about Abu Ghraib astonish me.
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:38 PM   #18
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Originally posted by deep




do you really believe this nonsense??

it was put out there by the administration

for uninformed people to swallow, hook line and sinker.


Don't think for one minute that the shia are not with the Iranians


saddam's trial is about him having shia killed
for trying to take him out

Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani was born in Iran
He is the most influential Iman in Iraq
Its not non-sense but a fact most that most people who have taken the time to actually study the Iran-Iraq war have known long before Clinton was even elected to office let alone Bush Jr.

Saddam had members of EVERY ethnic group murdered for trying to remove him from power at one time or another.

The uninformed believe all the worlds problems started with Bush or somehow can be linked to Bush in someway. Anything that does fit their preconcieved notion of Iraq and Bush's "failure" there is seen as "propoganda" from the administration.

Sorry, but the history of Iraq was not written by the Bush administration.
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:54 PM   #19
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no.

my assertion is that the invasion of Iraq has not increased Israel's security, and that whatever form the new Iraqi government takes, oil money will still be used to fund Hamas and Hezbollah.

this is another failure of the occupation.

in the interest of staying on topic, i'll ignore STING's response, though his claims about Abu Ghraib astonish me.
Israel knows a thing or two about security. They have survived for 60 years surounded by hostile forces on all sides. Their experts consider the removal of Saddam to be a benefit to their security. You will not find stronger support around the world for the Bush administrations removal of Saddam than you will find in Israel.

Whats astonishing is that so many Americans will never understand what the US military has done for most Iraqi prisoners. They have given them the best medical care in the world and rushed to save the lives of people who only moments before were trying to murder them. The numbers of such cases are in the thousands, but you don't here about them in the mainstream press. Such facts don't serve the liberal agenda.
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Old 04-20-2006, 02:30 PM   #20
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The numbers of such cases are in the thousands, but you don't here about them in the mainstream press. Such facts don't serve the liberal agenda.






yes, exposing the abuses at Abu Ghraib and revealing the White House sanctioned torture is really just part of the liberal agenda.
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Old 04-20-2006, 05:05 PM   #21
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yes, exposing the abuses at Abu Ghraib and revealing the White House sanctioned torture is really just part of the liberal agenda.
Considering how small the number of abuses were relative to the entire operation in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the only reason to expose and publicise the abuses on the level that they were, were for political reasons.

My best friend noted that no one bothered to report the fact that he flew down to Abu Ghraib in his Cobra Helicopter Gunship to fly escort to a medical helicopter transporting a terrorist to Baghdad for life saving medical treatment. "Johnny Jihad" likes to fire at the medical helicopters except when their being escorted by Cobra Helicopter Gunships.
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Old 04-20-2006, 05:40 PM   #22
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Considering how small the number of abuses were relative to the entire operation in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the only reason to expose and publicise the abuses on the level that they were, were for political reasons.

i'm amazed at your myopia and your willingness to believe the worst in people who disagree with you.

could it be that decent people were shocked and horrified not just at the abuse and torture, but by the failure of the military leadership to hold themselves accountable for such horrific abuses of prisoners, either the degredation of Abu Ghraib or things like "water boarding," and they felt it was necessary to make sure that these things don't happen in our name and also because they felt that such abuses undermined our credibility and whatever moral authority we had left to justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq? that the only way to get it back was to publicly atone for our crimes? that because they actually believed in the mission, the best thing to do was clean out the closet, send the guilty to jail, have Rumsfeld resign since this happened under his watch, and then, maybe then, we could regain an ounce of the credibility we have lost?

and those are just the responsible Republicans.
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:38 PM   #23
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I just don't get this Israeli/Palestinian dispute.

The Israelis use their super hi-tech fighter-planes and guided missiles and its reported as an act of self-defence. Meanwhile the Palestinians use suicide bombers and it's reported as an act of terrorism.

Anyone ever considered that the Palestinians just want the occupied land back in their rightful ownership and that they are actually using the most effective methods open to them given the obvious mismatch in military capability?

Given the significant Jewish population in the US, it is quite understandable why successive governments have maintained close ties with Israel, and and wholly conceivable therefore that the Palestinian side of the dispute has not been accurately or fully reported. No wonder then that the Palestinians celebrated in the streets on 9/11.
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Old 04-20-2006, 06:46 PM   #24
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Correct me if I am wrong but centuries ago wasn't Palestine occupied by the Jew's, or am I wrong?
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Old 04-20-2006, 07:50 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Irvine511



i'm amazed at your myopia and your willingness to believe the worst in people who disagree with you.

could it be that decent people were shocked and horrified not just at the abuse and torture, but by the failure of the military leadership to hold themselves accountable for such horrific abuses of prisoners, either the degredation of Abu Ghraib or things like "water boarding," and they felt it was necessary to make sure that these things don't happen in our name and also because they felt that such abuses undermined our credibility and whatever moral authority we had left to justify the invasion and occupation of Iraq? that the only way to get it back was to publicly atone for our crimes? that because they actually believed in the mission, the best thing to do was clean out the closet, send the guilty to jail, have Rumsfeld resign since this happened under his watch, and then, maybe then, we could regain an ounce of the credibility we have lost?

and those are just the responsible Republicans.
No one ever claimed that some of the events that happened at Abu Ghraib were not wrong. The problem is when people take a few isolated cases, and yes they are isolated when compared to the entire military, and blow them up into this image where every US soldier or marine is abusing and conducting such actions, which is the opposite of what really is happening. The standard that many liberals and those in the media hold the military to is an impossible one. If any of the 2.6 million men and women commit such actions seen at Abu Ghraib, then there is suddenly a massive problem through out the entire military and suddenly, all prisoners held by the US military are considered to be treated like this. What really happens to your average prisoner is not reported, only what has happened to the small number who were abused, and then this extropolated as being typically what happens to all prisoners. Such inaccurate reporting is often really someone pushing their political agenda.

Can you name a war that the United States has fought in where there was not a single case of abuse on the level of Abu Ghraib or higher? As for the type of abuses that went on at Abu Ghraib, In World War II, there were times when US soldiers killed unarmed German soldiers attempting to surrender. Definitely a war crime, but no one labeled the entire US military as a bunch of murderers or claimed that the United States, the US military or FDR had lost their moral authority or their credibility because of the actions of a few people.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:01 PM   #26
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Originally posted by adrball
I just don't get this Israeli/Palestinian dispute.

The Israelis use their super hi-tech fighter-planes and guided missiles and its reported as an act of self-defence. Meanwhile the Palestinians use suicide bombers and it's reported as an act of terrorism.

Anyone ever considered that the Palestinians just want the occupied land back in their rightful ownership and that they are actually using the most effective methods open to them given the obvious mismatch in military capability?

Given the significant Jewish population in the US, it is quite understandable why successive governments have maintained close ties with Israel, and and wholly conceivable therefore that the Palestinian side of the dispute has not been accurately or fully reported. No wonder then that the Palestinians celebrated in the streets on 9/11.
The Israelis use the military forces to find, target, and kill or capture terrorist. The Palestinian terrorist use their weapons to find, target, and kill the largest number of Israely civilians packed into a small area to assure the highest death rate possible.

If the Palestinian cause is really about self defense, why don't their suicide bombers attempt to go after IDF forces in the occupied territories? Why do they run from police or soldiers towards where innocent civilians are? How can entering a disco or a bar where teenagers are listening to music, perhaps U2, and then setting off a bomb to kill these people be consider self defense?

The Arab and Palestinian tactics of military invasion and terrorism conducted from the day Israel was founded in 1948 have primarily hurt one group of people, the Palestinians. Over the past 60 years Israel has grown into a modern society with one of the highest standards of living in the world, while the Palestinians live in an area less than half the size of the territory they would have received if they had agreed to the UN peace plan in 1948 which divided the land equally and provided for a Palestinian State.

Until Palestinian leaders realize their tactics of the past 60 years have failed and adopt a non-violent approach to address their problems, the Palestinian people will continue to suffer the consequenses. Even if military action were justified, it will never work. Israel is a democracy and it is susceptible to non-violent action unlike a strong military dictatorship. People don't see you as the victim when your walking into disco's setting off bombs killing teenagers listening to music.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:17 PM   #27
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Originally posted by STING2
Over the past 60 years Israel has grown into a modern society with one of the highest standards of living in the world,
Israel's living standards are only maintained due to subventions from the US taxpayer.

The IDF have a very poor record.

Gerard Kaufman, the respected British MP (who is Jewish incidentally) has written about being hassled by them on a recent visit.

In general the US media is biased against the Palestinians and correspondingly biased in favour of Israel and accordingly Americans often end up with a distorted view of the conflict.
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:40 PM   #28
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Israel's living standards are only maintained due to subventions from the US taxpayer.

The IDF have a very poor record.

Gerard Kaufman, the respected British MP (who is Jewish incidentally) has written about being hassled by them on a recent visit.

In general the US media is biased against the Palestinians and correspondingly biased in favour of Israel and accordingly Americans often end up with a distorted view of the conflict.
true

true

?

and
true
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:07 PM   #29
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Israel's living standards are only maintained due to subventions from the US taxpayer.

The IDF have a very poor record.

Gerard Kaufman, the respected British MP (who is Jewish incidentally) has written about being hassled by them on a recent visit.

In general the US media is biased against the Palestinians and correspondingly biased in favour of Israel and accordingly Americans often end up with a distorted view of the conflict.
Considering what the Europeans did to the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s, its rather shocking to see their gross bias toward the Palestinians over the past 60 years.

Israels living standards are only partially maintained from US foreign Aid, which is primarily military assistence. Egypt receives just as much US foreign aid, not something you'll hear from European media sources, but their standard of living is worse than the Occupied Palestinian territories according to the latest UN Human Development Report.

Notice that U2 has played Israel and not their neighbors.

The IDF have an excellant record and are considered one of the finest military forces in the world. It would only take the IDF a few weeks to murder everyone on the Westbank, so these crazy assertions that they are out to kill innocent civilians are baseless.

Sorry that Gerard Kaufman was hassled. What police or security force on the planet has never been accused of hassling someone at some point?
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:20 AM   #30
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Speaking of Jews controlling the media
Quote:
In 1989, Olmert visited his friend, movie producer Arnon Milchan, in Hollywood. The two sat at a Warner Brothers' sound studio with the film's director Gary Marshall and listened to the soundtrack for a new romantic comedy starring a 23 year-old unknown actress (Roberts) and a movie star whose fame has already began to fade (Richard Gere).

After about half-an-hour of listening to the soundtrack, an old song by Roy Orbison called "Pretty Woman' started playing. Olmert, who was listening to the music with his eyes half-shut, suddenly turned to Milchan and Marshall and said: "Listen, I have an idea for you – why don't you call the movie 'Pretty Woman,' after the song?"

"Forget it," Marshall replied, "it's too kitschy." Milchan, on his part, also had his doubts. But Olmert, already an experienced politician, managed to convince the two his idea was not so bad.

The rest, as everyone knows, is history. 'Pretty Woman,' which debuted in 1990, earned USD 463 million across the world and marked the starting point for Roberts' meteoric rise to stardom. Gere, an actor who seemed to have had his days of fame behind him before the movie was released, also received a boost to his then faltering career.
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