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Old 01-26-2006, 07:53 PM   #16
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:54 PM   #17
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According to some who would rather see client dictators than the will of the people . You can find the results of an election disapointing or outright scary and still have faith in the democratic process - the result hardly upsets cherished notions of what the people wanted.

As for empowering Arafat the Oslo War is a testament to everything he brought out in the cause of peace, in the absence of the occupation his power would evaporate - that is why he walked away from the negotiations in 2000 and launched the second intafada.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:56 PM   #18
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
[B]According to some who would rather see client dictators than the will of the people

Who is this comment addressed to?
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:21 PM   #19
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


As for empowering Arafat the Oslo War is a testament to everything he brought out in the cause of peace, in the absence of the occupation his power would evaporate - that is why he walked away from the negotiations in 2000 and launched the second intafada.
The fellow I was talking about was referring to Mahmoud Abbas, not Arafat.
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:23 PM   #20
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Right, that changes it around a bit. You said previous leader, I am unaware of the new leader fielded by Hamas ergo I assumed previous leader being the one before Abbas.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:18 PM   #21
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Is it possible that putting Hamas in a position of responsibility to the Palestinians isn't the worst thing that could happen? I dunno...I've got no clue how serious these people really are about wiping Israel off the map when you get down to it, or how willing the Palestinian people truly are to continue with their "war," which isn't helping their quality of life a bit. Maybe I'm too optimistic...
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:23 PM   #22
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I would also assume that sometime the critical point will be reached and people will be too tired to keep this war/uprising going. However, I don't underestimate the extent of human stupidity or cruelty so that's probably too lofty a goal.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:28 PM   #23
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The course that the Palestinians have been taking with the Intifada hasn't helped them worth a damn. Now they've put these leaders in a newly authorized place of power. This makes me really nervous. When they say that democracy can be chaotic, they're not kidding.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:37 PM   #24
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I'm glad to hear that Canada's new prime minister elect, Stephen Harper, has already publicaly stated that his government would not recognize Hamas.
Yes, let's not acknowledge democratically elected governments. That really shows how committed one is to democracy!

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Old 01-26-2006, 09:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
I've got no clue how serious these people really are about wiping Israel off the map when you get down to it, or how willing the Palestinian people truly are to continue with their "war," which isn't helping their quality of life a bit.
And no one knows really; that's the problem. Some of the European governments have been floating the idea of a "Sinn Fein" strategy (i.e. work with the political wing in hopes of slowly undermining the military wing from inside), which seems a bit hard to swallow here, given that that distinction is far muddier with Hamas than it was with SF (not that they were transparency incarnate either).
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I work with mostly Israeli Jews. I was talking to one of them today (an MD here on a fellowship, about to return to Tel Aviv in a year) and he said he feels that it is largely the fault of the Israeli government for not working better with the previous Palestinian leader, and not empowering him more, but continuing to ignore the Palestinian political factions.
That could be a left-leaning view, a right-leaning view, or neither, depending on what he meant by "working better" with Abbas. When Sharon pulled out of Gaza the (far) Left said: Oh this is bad because it's a way to avoid negotiations and set the Palestinian leadership up for a failure, while the Right said: Oh this is bad because he's signaling to them that terrorism alone will suffice to get them land, and that they won't have to completely disarm before getting anything else in order to prove they're serious. Or perhaps he just meant a more moderate stance that negotiations + phased disarmament would have allowed Abbas the most breathing room. (A_W is correct that so far, there is no reason to assume Abbas will not stay at the helm of the PA & PLO, but obviously he will have more opposition to contend with.)
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Democracy is dangerous in the short term, but if preserved in the long term it can yield success.
IF can be a very big word sometimes--that was why I brought up the less than encouraging precedent of Italy and Germany before. Fundamentalism is not the same as fascism, of course, but it doesn't have the greatest track record of refraining from hijacking the political process either. On the other hand, you could argue that that is pretty much what the "client dictatorship," as you put it, amounted to anyway, so why not go for broke.

Either way, opportunities to negotiate were certainly missed by both sides, and who knows how many more may get missed now.
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:34 PM   #26
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it's always good to have a dangling camera swinging in front of the president's face while he's trying to make hold an important press conference on the middle east...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...hre10601261623
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:13 AM   #27
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equally impressive was how well he kept his composure and completed his thoughts despite all adversity.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:03 PM   #28
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The talk in the Islamic community is that this was really a rejection of the status quo. Palestinians are fed up with the corruption and such that's going on in the current ruling party. Fahta has said they won't do a coalition but Abbas is expected to remain President.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
Is it possible that putting Hamas in a position of responsibility to the Palestinians isn't the worst thing that could happen?


i think that's the silver lining here.

democratic governments, because they are accountable to the population, tend to worry more about fixing, say, the sewer system than they are about wageing perpetual wars against a sworn enemy (hey, that sounds familiar ...)
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:10 PM   #30
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And it's easier for a country like the United States to attack an official Hamas government than a rogue Hamas terrorist group. I think the leaders of Hamas will want to maintain government control for a while, and if they do, they realize that they will have to change their ways. The militant wing can't simply carry out suicide bombings anymore, because the government will now be held responsible. It will be considered an act of war by the country of Palestine, not a terrorist group.
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