MadelynIris
Refugee
What's your peace solution here?
Mark
Mark
Palestine/Israel
- Thread starter MadelynIris
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Israel must pull out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip completely (1/3 of it is occupied by Jewish settlements) and Palestine must eliminate its known terrorist organizations.
If Syria is actually sincere, an elimination of WMDs from all of the Middle East would work as well, along with a formal recognition of Israel by its Middle East neighbors.
The problem stems from bigotry and perceived double standards, which, unfortunately, might not be far off.
Ormus
If Syria is actually sincere, an elimination of WMDs from all of the Middle East would work as well, along with a formal recognition of Israel by its Middle East neighbors.
The problem stems from bigotry and perceived double standards, which, unfortunately, might not be far off.
Ormus
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Mark,
what's your plan?
what's your plan?
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
I think Israel must withdraw from the territories it is occupying, as it has been required to do by numerous UN resolutions. I also believe Israel needs to reconsider its actions in the occupied territories as violence and destruction caused by the IDF is one of the contributing factors to Palestinian's resorting to suicide bombing.
I think there should be an independent Palestinian state, which is able to exercise meaningful control over its territory, ie a solution which give the Palestinian's control over small areas of land, seperated by roads controlled by the Israeli state is not a viable Palestinian state. Also, the Palestinian leadership need to do whatever is in their power to end suicide attacks against Israel.
(And please don't read anything into the fact that I discussed Israel's obligations before the obligations of the Palestinians, it was just my train of thought, not meant to imply that either the Israelis or the Palestinians or more to blame or less to blame than the other.)
I think there should be an independent Palestinian state, which is able to exercise meaningful control over its territory, ie a solution which give the Palestinian's control over small areas of land, seperated by roads controlled by the Israeli state is not a viable Palestinian state. Also, the Palestinian leadership need to do whatever is in their power to end suicide attacks against Israel.
(And please don't read anything into the fact that I discussed Israel's obligations before the obligations of the Palestinians, it was just my train of thought, not meant to imply that either the Israelis or the Palestinians or more to blame or less to blame than the other.)
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
Ormus said:
I agree with you Ormus... I do however feel that all WMD's, including those in Israel must be detroyed. Israel by the way has over 300 Nuclear weapons, funded of course by the United States.
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"Israel by the way has over 300 Nuclear weapons"
Not surprising at all considering how much blood and treasure the Arab nations have given over the past 50 years trying to top the Nazi's in killing Jews.
The UN had the perfect peace plan back in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and have spent half a century trying to destroy an independent country.
Not surprising at all considering how much blood and treasure the Arab nations have given over the past 50 years trying to top the Nazi's in killing Jews.
The UN had the perfect peace plan back in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and have spent half a century trying to destroy an independent country.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
STING2 said:
The way I see it, the Jews, with the support of Britain and the United States invaded arab land and through the continuous murder and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, have now called it a "homeland". The Palestinians and arabs were robbed of their homeland and murdered on a daily basis by Israeli armed forces who continually destroy their homes. 50 years of injustice and ethnic cleansing. The Palestinians had a rich culture, dating back to the Canaanites in 3000 B.C. ... Before the Hebrews arrived to that land in 1500 B.C. So the biblical rhetoric really has no basis.
If any jews died, it was a fight back against the inhumane injustice the Palestinians have endured. It in no way should be compared to the deaths of innocent jews at the hands of the Nazi's... In the Nazi scenerio, the jews were the oppressed... However, today, in Palestine/Israel, they are blatent oppressors.
Man Inside the Child,
I'd like to remind you that there are interference members who are Jewish and live in Israel and certainly feel oppressed when they have to worry about being killed in the local bar while listening to U2 because some brainwashed person with a bomb thinks the solution to his problems is being a suicide bomber and killing innocent teens will help achieve some sort of goal.
Palestinians did not become a distinct entity until the 20th century. The Jews living in the area of Israel/Palestine upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1917 had every right to form an independent state as the Muslims did. There was plenty of disagreement and discord in 30 years from that point until the UN peace plan and partition. But the UN plan was a fair agreement in 1948 and Israel accepted this agreement. The Arabs rejected it and chose war. 5 Arab nations attacked Israel in 1948 when it declared its independence and the acceptence of the UN plan which was actually weighted in the Arabs favor.
Following the peace plan, who attacked who? The Arabs attacked Israel so your idea of murder and ethnic cleansing is not one that fits the description of Israel but of the Arab nations that rejected peace and chose to launch a war to murder all the Jews in the area. More wars would follow in 1956, 1967, and 1973, all the fault of the Arab nations. For nearly 50 years, nearly all Arab nations have refused to recognize Israel and been dedicated at one time or another to its destruction. If this destruction had successfully taken place, which was the Arab goal, the Jewish loss of life could have been or would be nearly as much as that from World War II.
Israel is surrounded by Arab countries and has had to fight 4 wars to prevent it from being wiped from the face of the earth. The terrorism that we saw on 911, is something that Israel experiences on a smaller scale every day.
All this could have been prevented if the Arabs in 1948 had accepted the UN peace plan which would have given them 3 times as much land as any peace plan today. Instead they chose war and most of their suffering is self inflicted. The Arabs chose war in 1948, and over the next 50 years, made things worse for themselves and the Palestinians.
I'd like to remind you that there are interference members who are Jewish and live in Israel and certainly feel oppressed when they have to worry about being killed in the local bar while listening to U2 because some brainwashed person with a bomb thinks the solution to his problems is being a suicide bomber and killing innocent teens will help achieve some sort of goal.
Palestinians did not become a distinct entity until the 20th century. The Jews living in the area of Israel/Palestine upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1917 had every right to form an independent state as the Muslims did. There was plenty of disagreement and discord in 30 years from that point until the UN peace plan and partition. But the UN plan was a fair agreement in 1948 and Israel accepted this agreement. The Arabs rejected it and chose war. 5 Arab nations attacked Israel in 1948 when it declared its independence and the acceptence of the UN plan which was actually weighted in the Arabs favor.
Following the peace plan, who attacked who? The Arabs attacked Israel so your idea of murder and ethnic cleansing is not one that fits the description of Israel but of the Arab nations that rejected peace and chose to launch a war to murder all the Jews in the area. More wars would follow in 1956, 1967, and 1973, all the fault of the Arab nations. For nearly 50 years, nearly all Arab nations have refused to recognize Israel and been dedicated at one time or another to its destruction. If this destruction had successfully taken place, which was the Arab goal, the Jewish loss of life could have been or would be nearly as much as that from World War II.
Israel is surrounded by Arab countries and has had to fight 4 wars to prevent it from being wiped from the face of the earth. The terrorism that we saw on 911, is something that Israel experiences on a smaller scale every day.
All this could have been prevented if the Arabs in 1948 had accepted the UN peace plan which would have given them 3 times as much land as any peace plan today. Instead they chose war and most of their suffering is self inflicted. The Arabs chose war in 1948, and over the next 50 years, made things worse for themselves and the Palestinians.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
In 1917 only 5% of the population was Jewish... and they were living in peace with the Arabs... Clearly the Palestinians were literally robbed when Palestinian muslims and Christians accounted for the bulk of the population.
As far as suicide bombers go... You're right it is a terrible act and it must be horrifying for you not to be able to go to a bar and listen to U2. But the Palestinians suicide bombers are a product of Israeli oppression and humiliation. It is all this ? the continuous oppression, the constant humiliation ?
which has given birth to the suicide bomber. The suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters fighting against the daily murder, destruction of their homes in favour of new settlements in Palestinian territory, the destruction of their stores and olive gardens.... all in favour of new settlements, therby shrinking Palestinian territory.
After 1948, Palestinians were literally robbed, displaced, forced out, ethnic cleansed, or forced to move to their new "territory".... In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world's Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a quarter of Palestine's population and that's with the immigration of Jews after the Holocaust. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the ?Jewish state?, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs' rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967). But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors.
As far as deaths go, in this current intifada, sparked by the continuation of jewish settlements on Palestinian territory,
for every 10 Palestinians who dies, one Jew dies.... This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions.
As far as being in a nightclub goes, and fearing a suicide bomber/freedom fighter to blow himself up, perhaps you should lobby your Israeli government to withdraw from Palestinian territory and stop the daily bloodshed, seisure, and destruction of Palestinian homes in favour of new settlements. Why should you expect to live in peace and harmony when just a few miles away, your government, along with American weapons and support continues to reppress Palestinians.... They are being killed, tortured, oppressed, humiliated, and stripped of their right to live in peace on what little remains of their land.
As far as suicide bombers go... You're right it is a terrible act and it must be horrifying for you not to be able to go to a bar and listen to U2. But the Palestinians suicide bombers are a product of Israeli oppression and humiliation. It is all this ? the continuous oppression, the constant humiliation ?
which has given birth to the suicide bomber. The suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters fighting against the daily murder, destruction of their homes in favour of new settlements in Palestinian territory, the destruction of their stores and olive gardens.... all in favour of new settlements, therby shrinking Palestinian territory.
After 1948, Palestinians were literally robbed, displaced, forced out, ethnic cleansed, or forced to move to their new "territory".... In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world's Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a quarter of Palestine's population and that's with the immigration of Jews after the Holocaust. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the ?Jewish state?, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs' rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967). But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors.
As far as deaths go, in this current intifada, sparked by the continuation of jewish settlements on Palestinian territory,
for every 10 Palestinians who dies, one Jew dies.... This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions.
As far as being in a nightclub goes, and fearing a suicide bomber/freedom fighter to blow himself up, perhaps you should lobby your Israeli government to withdraw from Palestinian territory and stop the daily bloodshed, seisure, and destruction of Palestinian homes in favour of new settlements. Why should you expect to live in peace and harmony when just a few miles away, your government, along with American weapons and support continues to reppress Palestinians.... They are being killed, tortured, oppressed, humiliated, and stripped of their right to live in peace on what little remains of their land.
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Man Inside The Child,
Actually by 1917 over 12.5% of the population of Israel/Palestine was Jewish. Realize the total population at this time was around 700,000. There were large area's of land in which no one owned the land. With over 10,000 square miles of area, 700,000 is a rather small number. Consider today that the same area supports nearly 7 million and there are still large uninhabited area's! Also, nearly 40% of the land was owned by rich Arabs living in Egypt and Syria. Between World War I and World War II, they rightfully sold much of their land to Jewish settlers for nearly 10 times the amount a settler in the USA would pay for a similar track of land. Fighting among the Jewish and Arab population began as early as 1900.
By the way, I said other members of interference currently live in Israel, not me. Palestinians incorrectly describe counter terrorism operations as oppression and humiliation. These operations help prevent greater loss of life from terrorist acts. The terrorist decision to hide and fight in the civilian area's has resulted in many civilian deaths which are accidents. If it was the goal of the Israely army to kill Palestinian civilians, every Palestinian would have been killed 30 years ago. Israely military has the capability to this, but have not and will not. The Palestinian terrorist want to kill all the Jews in Israel/Palestine, but do not have the capability. Its easy to see from that who the real aggressor is.
I find nothing more idiotic than a suicide bomber who considers himself a "freedom fighter". How are you going to free yourself from anything by bombing Israely teens in a disco listening to U2? If suicide bombers think they have a legitmate grievence that justifies violent action, why don't they target Israely soldiers in the West Bank, instead of Jewish childern or teenagers in Tel Aviv?
As far as the Jewish settlers go, their numbers have been a bit overestimated. At the same time, they are settling on unoccupied land in the West Bank. I see nothing wrong with this as long as they are willing to become citizens of an Independent Palestinian State once that happens.
The Israely defense force only kills and destroys the homes of terrorist. In doing so, accidents do happen. If it was the Israely Defense forces desire to target innocent muslim civilians, they would have all been murdered 3 decades ago!
At the time of the partition in 1948, Jews represented 1/3 of the population in Israel/Palestine. They also made up the majority of people in the area that Israel recieved in the UN plan. When Israel declared independence, it had half the land. On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs.
I find it amazing that you neglect to mention Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon's invasion of Israel in 1948! If this had not happened, and the peace plan had been accepted, the Palestinians would not be in the mess their in today.
During the military manuevers and combat that happened, Arab army's were defeated and 90% of the Arabs hat left their homes, left by choice, rather than deal with the possibility of an Israely occupation. It is true that 10% were evicted by force. But a sizeable number of Arabs remained and currently make up 15% of the population of the Israely state. Unlike Arabs in most other Arab countries, these Arabs have the right to vote!
"But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors."
I'm afraid you don't understand the fact that the UN plan gave land to Jews that were already living on their own land! The UN plan did not push anyone out of their land. Thousands of Jews had lived in the area on a continious bases for centuries and many had rightfully emmigrated with the permission of the Ottoman Empire in late 1800s and early 1900s. Jews had also legally purchased land for sale by Arab landowners. By 1948, the land they were given on the UN partition was theirs. The Arabs rejected a fair partition of the land and chose war. If the UN plan of 1948 was wrong, why are Arabs now asking for the very thing they rejected in 1948?!?
Actually, in the current intifada, for every 2-3 Palestinians that are killed, one Jew is killed. This is because the Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian civilian population, making these civilian deaths unavoidable. Its impossible to kill and contain Palestinian terrorist hiding among a civilian population, without there being accidents in which innocent civilians are killed. The Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian terrorist because they know when the Israely's try to hunt them down, it will be difficult and they will likely accidently kill Palestinian civilians which they came falsely claim as an act of Israely oppression.
"This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions."
Please tell me which other wars for "freedom", "Justice" "against oppression", "for Humanity", "for land" were fought by strapping a bomb to oneself and going into a disco and killing Israely teens listening to U2? How does killing Israely teens listening to U2 accomplish any type of political goal? How does it accomplish anything at all? What has Palestinian Terrorism, and Arab Invasions of the past 50 years accomplished?
Let me tell you something, unlike the rest of the Arab countries, Israel is a full democracy. The people in Israel are well educated and have voted for Israely governments that will defend them from terrorism. Defending oneself from terrorism is not an act of oppression. The Israely's have chosen their current government because they believe it is the one that is most, Just, and will provide them with the most security from terrorist that want to kill all Jews in a massacre far worse than anything that happened in World War II.
I respect the Jews and all those that support the targeted hunt for terrorist anywhere in Palestine or else where. This is not oppression of the Palestinians but rather the excercise of one's right to life and self defense from the some of the most evil and twisted people on the Earth. There is no justification for TARGETING teens in a disco with suicide bombers! How on earth does that accomplish anything!? If the person feels oppressed by Israely soldiers on the West Bank, why don't they attack Israely soldiers on the West Bank instead of teens in a disco?!?!?
It is the Jews in Israel that are surrounded by Arab countries who have failed to recognize their right to exist and have attacked and invaded them 4 times in the last 50 years in addition to all the terrorism. The acts of the suicide bombers are just as evil and unjustified as what terrorist did on 9/11.
Actually by 1917 over 12.5% of the population of Israel/Palestine was Jewish. Realize the total population at this time was around 700,000. There were large area's of land in which no one owned the land. With over 10,000 square miles of area, 700,000 is a rather small number. Consider today that the same area supports nearly 7 million and there are still large uninhabited area's! Also, nearly 40% of the land was owned by rich Arabs living in Egypt and Syria. Between World War I and World War II, they rightfully sold much of their land to Jewish settlers for nearly 10 times the amount a settler in the USA would pay for a similar track of land. Fighting among the Jewish and Arab population began as early as 1900.
By the way, I said other members of interference currently live in Israel, not me. Palestinians incorrectly describe counter terrorism operations as oppression and humiliation. These operations help prevent greater loss of life from terrorist acts. The terrorist decision to hide and fight in the civilian area's has resulted in many civilian deaths which are accidents. If it was the goal of the Israely army to kill Palestinian civilians, every Palestinian would have been killed 30 years ago. Israely military has the capability to this, but have not and will not. The Palestinian terrorist want to kill all the Jews in Israel/Palestine, but do not have the capability. Its easy to see from that who the real aggressor is.
I find nothing more idiotic than a suicide bomber who considers himself a "freedom fighter". How are you going to free yourself from anything by bombing Israely teens in a disco listening to U2? If suicide bombers think they have a legitmate grievence that justifies violent action, why don't they target Israely soldiers in the West Bank, instead of Jewish childern or teenagers in Tel Aviv?
As far as the Jewish settlers go, their numbers have been a bit overestimated. At the same time, they are settling on unoccupied land in the West Bank. I see nothing wrong with this as long as they are willing to become citizens of an Independent Palestinian State once that happens.
The Israely defense force only kills and destroys the homes of terrorist. In doing so, accidents do happen. If it was the Israely Defense forces desire to target innocent muslim civilians, they would have all been murdered 3 decades ago!
At the time of the partition in 1948, Jews represented 1/3 of the population in Israel/Palestine. They also made up the majority of people in the area that Israel recieved in the UN plan. When Israel declared independence, it had half the land. On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs.
I find it amazing that you neglect to mention Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon's invasion of Israel in 1948! If this had not happened, and the peace plan had been accepted, the Palestinians would not be in the mess their in today.
During the military manuevers and combat that happened, Arab army's were defeated and 90% of the Arabs hat left their homes, left by choice, rather than deal with the possibility of an Israely occupation. It is true that 10% were evicted by force. But a sizeable number of Arabs remained and currently make up 15% of the population of the Israely state. Unlike Arabs in most other Arab countries, these Arabs have the right to vote!
"But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors."
I'm afraid you don't understand the fact that the UN plan gave land to Jews that were already living on their own land! The UN plan did not push anyone out of their land. Thousands of Jews had lived in the area on a continious bases for centuries and many had rightfully emmigrated with the permission of the Ottoman Empire in late 1800s and early 1900s. Jews had also legally purchased land for sale by Arab landowners. By 1948, the land they were given on the UN partition was theirs. The Arabs rejected a fair partition of the land and chose war. If the UN plan of 1948 was wrong, why are Arabs now asking for the very thing they rejected in 1948?!?
Actually, in the current intifada, for every 2-3 Palestinians that are killed, one Jew is killed. This is because the Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian civilian population, making these civilian deaths unavoidable. Its impossible to kill and contain Palestinian terrorist hiding among a civilian population, without there being accidents in which innocent civilians are killed. The Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian terrorist because they know when the Israely's try to hunt them down, it will be difficult and they will likely accidently kill Palestinian civilians which they came falsely claim as an act of Israely oppression.
"This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions."
Please tell me which other wars for "freedom", "Justice" "against oppression", "for Humanity", "for land" were fought by strapping a bomb to oneself and going into a disco and killing Israely teens listening to U2? How does killing Israely teens listening to U2 accomplish any type of political goal? How does it accomplish anything at all? What has Palestinian Terrorism, and Arab Invasions of the past 50 years accomplished?
Let me tell you something, unlike the rest of the Arab countries, Israel is a full democracy. The people in Israel are well educated and have voted for Israely governments that will defend them from terrorism. Defending oneself from terrorism is not an act of oppression. The Israely's have chosen their current government because they believe it is the one that is most, Just, and will provide them with the most security from terrorist that want to kill all Jews in a massacre far worse than anything that happened in World War II.
I respect the Jews and all those that support the targeted hunt for terrorist anywhere in Palestine or else where. This is not oppression of the Palestinians but rather the excercise of one's right to life and self defense from the some of the most evil and twisted people on the Earth. There is no justification for TARGETING teens in a disco with suicide bombers! How on earth does that accomplish anything!? If the person feels oppressed by Israely soldiers on the West Bank, why don't they attack Israely soldiers on the West Bank instead of teens in a disco?!?!?
It is the Jews in Israel that are surrounded by Arab countries who have failed to recognize their right to exist and have attacked and invaded them 4 times in the last 50 years in addition to all the terrorism. The acts of the suicide bombers are just as evil and unjustified as what terrorist did on 9/11.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
Sting,
I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land.
As far as population goes "On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs." I'm not sure how accurate that information is, but you don't go from 9% to 60% overnight... There was a slow and forced "immigration" at the start of world war II and that's why the numbers swelled so high.
As far as your argument of terrorism goes, you still have to ask yourself why terrorsim exists... Terrorism and Islamic Extremism have arised from the torture, murder, and oppression of Palestinians for over 50 years.
Just one scenerio, your mom, dad, wife, son, friends daughter are all killed by an opressive power... Your people have had everything taken away from them... You have nothing, they attack you with American supplied F16's, gunships, etc... It's war... How do you fight back and gain freedom for future generations, What do you have to live for nevertheless?? I know, I'm anti-suicide bomber, but I and most others look at the scenerio from a position of freedom, they've been oppressed, they are in war.... Palestinian civilians are being tortured and murdered and that's the only way they can fight back.
Anyways, you know what, believe it or not, I agree with you, I feel that the Palestinians do need a Martin Luther King and an non-violent approach to the scenerio, unfortunately Yasser Arafat as an uneducated, embezzling, guerilla fighter with little to offer the Palestinians. I've actually said that before, that they should mimic the African-American movement and strive to gain support both domestically and internationally.
But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power.... That is what has spurred such retaliation from the Palestinians. That is what has spurred the suicide bombing... Suicide bombing is a sad reality in Palestine... Everything has been taken away from them and they feel as though they must give up their lives to give freedom to future generations... You may say that attacking a disco is harsh, and yes i think your right, but so is bulldozing a home with a family still inside... Such events create the suicide bomber... Do I agree with suicide bombing... No, I actually agree with your point that there should be a non violent approach. But we are looking on from a position of peace, having not lived through the oppression, aggression, and murder.
As the brilliant Edward Said, a Colombia and Berkely Professor/Intellectual suggests "Sharon government's preposterous claim that Israel is the victim, the Palestinians the aggressors in the four- decade war that the Israeli army has waged against civilians, property and institutions without mercy or discrimination. The result today is that the Palestinians are locked up in 220 ghettos controlled by the army; American-supplied Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks, and F-16s mow down people, houses, olive groves and fields on a daily basis; schools and universities as well as businesses and civil institutions are totally disrupted; hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed and tens of thousands injured (that's only in the past year); Israel's assassinations of Palestinian leaders continue; unemployment and poverty stand at about 50 per cent -- and all this while General Anthony Zinni drones on about Palestinian "violence" to the wretched Arafat, who can't even leave his office in Ramallah because he is imprisoned there by Israeli tanks, while his several tattered security forces scamper about trying to survive the destruction of their offices and barracks. "
What I find interesting is that "Israel's assassination of Palestinian leaders continue"... Perhaps the Israeli's prefer the poor and corrupt leadership of Yasser Arafat as they continually hunt down any potential leader attempting to start a freedom movement. Maybe it's in Israels best interest to keep Yasser Arafat around... a horrible leader with the image of a terrorist... There are many Palestinians that could do a far better job to gain local and international support, but really, if the Israeli's wanted him out, he would be.... they'd stage a coup and kill him... Why kill other leaders and not Arafat.... Likely, because Israel wants him there, he's done nothing for the Palestinians but hurt the....
But I'm with you though Sting, I want to see non-violent resistence, but the Israeli government must allow some sort of leadership to arise. Why not let it happen??? Why is Arafat in power, and why are Israeli's killing other leaders, several of whom are NON-Violent.
We must understand that the Palestinians and Israeli's are two communities of suffering, but at the present time, one has tremendous power. The other is a victim of this former victim. But on a positive note... all human conflict is created by humans and it can be solved by humans."
I'm with you Sting, the violence must stop, the suicide bombing must stop... but that will only stop when Israel seizes the continued building of settlements on what little remains of Palestinian territory... Are you with me?
I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land.
As far as population goes "On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs." I'm not sure how accurate that information is, but you don't go from 9% to 60% overnight... There was a slow and forced "immigration" at the start of world war II and that's why the numbers swelled so high.
As far as your argument of terrorism goes, you still have to ask yourself why terrorsim exists... Terrorism and Islamic Extremism have arised from the torture, murder, and oppression of Palestinians for over 50 years.
Just one scenerio, your mom, dad, wife, son, friends daughter are all killed by an opressive power... Your people have had everything taken away from them... You have nothing, they attack you with American supplied F16's, gunships, etc... It's war... How do you fight back and gain freedom for future generations, What do you have to live for nevertheless?? I know, I'm anti-suicide bomber, but I and most others look at the scenerio from a position of freedom, they've been oppressed, they are in war.... Palestinian civilians are being tortured and murdered and that's the only way they can fight back.
Anyways, you know what, believe it or not, I agree with you, I feel that the Palestinians do need a Martin Luther King and an non-violent approach to the scenerio, unfortunately Yasser Arafat as an uneducated, embezzling, guerilla fighter with little to offer the Palestinians. I've actually said that before, that they should mimic the African-American movement and strive to gain support both domestically and internationally.
But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power.... That is what has spurred such retaliation from the Palestinians. That is what has spurred the suicide bombing... Suicide bombing is a sad reality in Palestine... Everything has been taken away from them and they feel as though they must give up their lives to give freedom to future generations... You may say that attacking a disco is harsh, and yes i think your right, but so is bulldozing a home with a family still inside... Such events create the suicide bomber... Do I agree with suicide bombing... No, I actually agree with your point that there should be a non violent approach. But we are looking on from a position of peace, having not lived through the oppression, aggression, and murder.
As the brilliant Edward Said, a Colombia and Berkely Professor/Intellectual suggests "Sharon government's preposterous claim that Israel is the victim, the Palestinians the aggressors in the four- decade war that the Israeli army has waged against civilians, property and institutions without mercy or discrimination. The result today is that the Palestinians are locked up in 220 ghettos controlled by the army; American-supplied Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks, and F-16s mow down people, houses, olive groves and fields on a daily basis; schools and universities as well as businesses and civil institutions are totally disrupted; hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed and tens of thousands injured (that's only in the past year); Israel's assassinations of Palestinian leaders continue; unemployment and poverty stand at about 50 per cent -- and all this while General Anthony Zinni drones on about Palestinian "violence" to the wretched Arafat, who can't even leave his office in Ramallah because he is imprisoned there by Israeli tanks, while his several tattered security forces scamper about trying to survive the destruction of their offices and barracks. "
What I find interesting is that "Israel's assassination of Palestinian leaders continue"... Perhaps the Israeli's prefer the poor and corrupt leadership of Yasser Arafat as they continually hunt down any potential leader attempting to start a freedom movement. Maybe it's in Israels best interest to keep Yasser Arafat around... a horrible leader with the image of a terrorist... There are many Palestinians that could do a far better job to gain local and international support, but really, if the Israeli's wanted him out, he would be.... they'd stage a coup and kill him... Why kill other leaders and not Arafat.... Likely, because Israel wants him there, he's done nothing for the Palestinians but hurt the....
But I'm with you though Sting, I want to see non-violent resistence, but the Israeli government must allow some sort of leadership to arise. Why not let it happen??? Why is Arafat in power, and why are Israeli's killing other leaders, several of whom are NON-Violent.
We must understand that the Palestinians and Israeli's are two communities of suffering, but at the present time, one has tremendous power. The other is a victim of this former victim. But on a positive note... all human conflict is created by humans and it can be solved by humans."
I'm with you Sting, the violence must stop, the suicide bombing must stop... but that will only stop when Israel seizes the continued building of settlements on what little remains of Palestinian territory... Are you with me?
Last edited:
bonoman
Refugee
great discusion guys!
Just a thought, U2 must be pretty popular if every teen in all the disco's are listening to them! HEHE...
Just a thought, U2 must be pretty popular if every teen in all the disco's are listening to them! HEHE...
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
Sting and Headache.
Thanks for your intellegent dialogue in this friendly debate.
I learned from both of you.
DB9
Thanks for your intellegent dialogue in this friendly debate.
I learned from both of you.
DB9
Man Inside The Suitcase,
"I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land."
This is false and rather a creation by the Palestinians. Much of the land in Israel/Palestine at the time was Government land, the Government here being the Ottoman Empire, or land owned by people in modern day Egypt and Syria, all part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. The population was only about 10% of what it is today and most people living there were not wealthy and only owned a small portion of the land. The result is that there was lots of empty land to settle on or buy from people that owned it, but were not living in the area. The land records and records of purchase prove the point.
Oh and by the way, from 1917 to 1948, Arabs from other countries accounted for 40% of the immigration into Israel/Palestine. That fact basically turns any idea that the Arabs were murdered or forced to flee during that time period to rubbish. The British who policed the area at the time actually blocked Jewish immigration into the area, but never put restrictions on Arabs from other countries.
The Israely military does not target innocent civilians in the West Bank and Gaza! But accidents do happen when they rightfully go after terrorist hiding in populated area's. Israel has every right to defend itself. One can never justify the targeting of innocent civilians in terrorist attacks under any circumstances. Thats just insane. The people their trying to kill in these attacks have nothing to do with their alleged problems.
To go blow up someone you don't know and has nothing to do with your problem because and Israely soldier is patroling an area, not to far from your house looking for terrorist, is insanity. If there is a justification for fighting because the Israely military is temporarily occupying the West Bank and Gaza, then at least fight the military that is occupying the West Bank and Gaza instead of going into crowded area's of Israel to murder Women in Children. There is no logic to Palestinian terror tactics. That make no sense and do not achieve any sort of goal except the murder of women and childern.
"But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power"
Sharon's government was elected by the Israely people. The massacres at Sabra and Shatila have never been conclusively linked to Sharon despite the circumstantial evidence. Clearly the Israely population was not convinced by such evidence which is why they elected him as their leader.
If Israel was really waging a war agains the Palestinian people, the Palestinian people would have all been killed 3 decades ago. So these accusations that the Israely government is waging a war against them is pure rubbish! If the Israely Defense Force wanted to, they could kill everyone in the West Bank and Gaza in days. Its obvious that is not their goal at all. The deaths that have happened are mostly unavoidable accidents do to the terrorist deciding to hide in heavily populated area's.
Israel has every right to go after Palestinian leaders that are involved in terrorism. Its their right of self defense to target people who murder innocent women and childern. There has never been a "non-violent" movement in Palestine at any point. If it was Israel objective to kill innocent people, all the Palestinians would already be dead. Israel targets TERRORIST!
Israel is NOT a former victim, it still is a victim! Your also failing to notice the Arab countries in the region and their contribution to the wars, violence and terrorism that is committed against Israel. Palestinians are victims, but they have the Arab world and terrorist among them to blaim for this, not Israel, except for Israely individuals who have committed crimes.
I agree Israel should stop settlements in the occupied area's. But Palestinians are never going to have an independent state until there is a regional negotiation of the problems and Palestinians adopt non-violent approaches to resolve their problems. Palestinians biggest threat to their security and potential statehood is not the Israely military, but the terrorist that live among them.
"I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land."
This is false and rather a creation by the Palestinians. Much of the land in Israel/Palestine at the time was Government land, the Government here being the Ottoman Empire, or land owned by people in modern day Egypt and Syria, all part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. The population was only about 10% of what it is today and most people living there were not wealthy and only owned a small portion of the land. The result is that there was lots of empty land to settle on or buy from people that owned it, but were not living in the area. The land records and records of purchase prove the point.
Oh and by the way, from 1917 to 1948, Arabs from other countries accounted for 40% of the immigration into Israel/Palestine. That fact basically turns any idea that the Arabs were murdered or forced to flee during that time period to rubbish. The British who policed the area at the time actually blocked Jewish immigration into the area, but never put restrictions on Arabs from other countries.
The Israely military does not target innocent civilians in the West Bank and Gaza! But accidents do happen when they rightfully go after terrorist hiding in populated area's. Israel has every right to defend itself. One can never justify the targeting of innocent civilians in terrorist attacks under any circumstances. Thats just insane. The people their trying to kill in these attacks have nothing to do with their alleged problems.
To go blow up someone you don't know and has nothing to do with your problem because and Israely soldier is patroling an area, not to far from your house looking for terrorist, is insanity. If there is a justification for fighting because the Israely military is temporarily occupying the West Bank and Gaza, then at least fight the military that is occupying the West Bank and Gaza instead of going into crowded area's of Israel to murder Women in Children. There is no logic to Palestinian terror tactics. That make no sense and do not achieve any sort of goal except the murder of women and childern.
"But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power"
Sharon's government was elected by the Israely people. The massacres at Sabra and Shatila have never been conclusively linked to Sharon despite the circumstantial evidence. Clearly the Israely population was not convinced by such evidence which is why they elected him as their leader.
If Israel was really waging a war agains the Palestinian people, the Palestinian people would have all been killed 3 decades ago. So these accusations that the Israely government is waging a war against them is pure rubbish! If the Israely Defense Force wanted to, they could kill everyone in the West Bank and Gaza in days. Its obvious that is not their goal at all. The deaths that have happened are mostly unavoidable accidents do to the terrorist deciding to hide in heavily populated area's.
Israel has every right to go after Palestinian leaders that are involved in terrorism. Its their right of self defense to target people who murder innocent women and childern. There has never been a "non-violent" movement in Palestine at any point. If it was Israel objective to kill innocent people, all the Palestinians would already be dead. Israel targets TERRORIST!
Israel is NOT a former victim, it still is a victim! Your also failing to notice the Arab countries in the region and their contribution to the wars, violence and terrorism that is committed against Israel. Palestinians are victims, but they have the Arab world and terrorist among them to blaim for this, not Israel, except for Israely individuals who have committed crimes.
I agree Israel should stop settlements in the occupied area's. But Palestinians are never going to have an independent state until there is a regional negotiation of the problems and Palestinians adopt non-violent approaches to resolve their problems. Palestinians biggest threat to their security and potential statehood is not the Israely military, but the terrorist that live among them.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
Sting,
This argument is going nowhere... Not much of a dialectic discussion... But sorry man but I hate to repeat myself...
Please re-read my previous posts in response to this one. But I'll leave you with this:
The oprressed are now the oppressors... The oppressors created the terrorist. The terrorism will stop when the oppression stops...
Peace.
Michael
This argument is going nowhere... Not much of a dialectic discussion... But sorry man but I hate to repeat myself...
Please re-read my previous posts in response to this one. But I'll leave you with this:
The oprressed are now the oppressors... The oppressors created the terrorist. The terrorism will stop when the oppression stops...
Peace.
Michael
Man Inside the Suitcase,
I carefully read everything in your posts and responded accordingly. I wish you would address the problems that Arab countries have created for the Palestinians and their invasions and attacks on Israel. Did you even read my posts?
I've explained technically why some of the things you have said are not so, but you keep on coming back with "oppression, murder etc". Try to be more specific.
In addition, after the 1948 war, over 700,000 Jews in Arab countries in the middle east, were kicked out of their homes just because they were Jewish. There was no war going on at the point in any of those countries either.
If you read my posts you'll see my explanation as to why Israel is still oppressed. Terrorism is created by a lack of education and ruthless leaders in various area's of Palestinian and Arab society. It is a retarded and ineffective way for dealing with the problems the Palestinians or any other people face.
Israel's right to self defense is NOT oppression. Israel targets terrorist NOT innocent civilians. If Israel did target innocent civilians, we wouldn't be talking about the Palestinians because they would of all been killed 30 years ago.
The terrorism will stop when the Palestinians collectively as a people learn that they will never achieve their goals through terrorism. It will take realizing that Non-violent action is their only way to an independent state. All terrorism does is prevent Palestinians from ever solving any of their problems. There would be no Israely raids into towns and cities in the occupied area's if there was no terrorism.
I carefully read everything in your posts and responded accordingly. I wish you would address the problems that Arab countries have created for the Palestinians and their invasions and attacks on Israel. Did you even read my posts?
I've explained technically why some of the things you have said are not so, but you keep on coming back with "oppression, murder etc". Try to be more specific.
In addition, after the 1948 war, over 700,000 Jews in Arab countries in the middle east, were kicked out of their homes just because they were Jewish. There was no war going on at the point in any of those countries either.
If you read my posts you'll see my explanation as to why Israel is still oppressed. Terrorism is created by a lack of education and ruthless leaders in various area's of Palestinian and Arab society. It is a retarded and ineffective way for dealing with the problems the Palestinians or any other people face.
Israel's right to self defense is NOT oppression. Israel targets terrorist NOT innocent civilians. If Israel did target innocent civilians, we wouldn't be talking about the Palestinians because they would of all been killed 30 years ago.
The terrorism will stop when the Palestinians collectively as a people learn that they will never achieve their goals through terrorism. It will take realizing that Non-violent action is their only way to an independent state. All terrorism does is prevent Palestinians from ever solving any of their problems. There would be no Israely raids into towns and cities in the occupied area's if there was no terrorism.
Klaus
Refugee
Sting: While agree to most of what you said above, i'd like to add that Israel dosn't target innocent civilians but Sharon accepts lots of colateral damage when acting against the terrorists - and this is exactly what the terrorists need to get more support in palestina. 
Terrorism and Sharons agression against palestinensians will stop when both sides learn that revenge is not the answer. Hopefully citizens of both sides are intelligent enough to throw out the agressors of their party as soon as possible.
Klaus
Terrorism and Sharons agression against palestinensians will stop when both sides learn that revenge is not the answer. Hopefully citizens of both sides are intelligent enough to throw out the agressors of their party as soon as possible.
Klaus
Klaus,
There would not be any colateral damage if the terrorist did not hide in the heavily populated cities behind women and childern. Israel has every right to respond and defend itself. The loss of life is rather small compared to most military operations in the past in such densely populated area's.
If Sharon's government objective was aggression, the Palestinians would be killed or cleared out in days. It is a targeted campaign to kill or capture terrorist that like to kill Israely women and childern. I'm sure Israely citizens will continue to support governments that take strong measure to kill or capture terrorist and defend the country from Arab aggression that has been so common against Israel in the last 50 years. Israel is a democracy and can choose its leaders unlike most other Arabs.
There would not be any colateral damage if the terrorist did not hide in the heavily populated cities behind women and childern. Israel has every right to respond and defend itself. The loss of life is rather small compared to most military operations in the past in such densely populated area's.
If Sharon's government objective was aggression, the Palestinians would be killed or cleared out in days. It is a targeted campaign to kill or capture terrorist that like to kill Israely women and childern. I'm sure Israely citizens will continue to support governments that take strong measure to kill or capture terrorist and defend the country from Arab aggression that has been so common against Israel in the last 50 years. Israel is a democracy and can choose its leaders unlike most other Arabs.
Klaus
Refugee
Sting:
You know that the world wouldn't accept a genocide against Palestinensians.
I repeat myself but: Terrorism is wrong, because of terrorism there is no easy to see difference to the civilians.
But this dosn't legitimate anyone to attack civilians with tanks just because they get one terrorist with this action.
If you accept colateral damage like this you can't be surpised that the affected civilians will really hate you and start to support the enemy of their enemy
As anyone here an overview which revenge of the revenge of the revenge of the... we are seing in tonights news?
We have to stop this circle of violence, and a powerfull Sharon is the wrong person for this on the israeli side. Let's hope the successor of Arafat is better than Arafat.
Klaus
You know that the world wouldn't accept a genocide against Palestinensians.
I repeat myself but: Terrorism is wrong, because of terrorism there is no easy to see difference to the civilians.
But this dosn't legitimate anyone to attack civilians with tanks just because they get one terrorist with this action.
If you accept colateral damage like this you can't be surpised that the affected civilians will really hate you and start to support the enemy of their enemy
As anyone here an overview which revenge of the revenge of the revenge of the... we are seing in tonights news?
We have to stop this circle of violence, and a powerfull Sharon is the wrong person for this on the israeli side. Let's hope the successor of Arafat is better than Arafat.
Klaus
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
sting,
Are you still preaching the Fox News/terrorism rhetoric....
Broaden your mind, don't necessarily read my post but try reading some alternative media... like the nation, the independent, etc...
I tried to have I dialectic and constructive discussion with Sting but he didn't read the part where I said that I believed and
agreed with the fact that non violence would be a better approach, especially with a Martin Luther King type leader to help them rise against the oppression.... Or when I attacked Yasser Ararat's leadership... I at least tried to have a truth finding discussion... He preferred not to attempt to find some sort of answer with me, and focus on positive solutions, but continue with his "terrorism" and "victim" rhetoric.
Oppression breads terrorism.... Dude, I'm gonna keep it brief because I know it'll go over your head... But hopefully someone else will learn something...
The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel.
The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians.
No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers.
What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack.
Israel's oppresion breads terrorism...
Later.
Are you still preaching the Fox News/terrorism rhetoric....
Broaden your mind, don't necessarily read my post but try reading some alternative media... like the nation, the independent, etc...
I tried to have I dialectic and constructive discussion with Sting but he didn't read the part where I said that I believed and
agreed with the fact that non violence would be a better approach, especially with a Martin Luther King type leader to help them rise against the oppression.... Or when I attacked Yasser Ararat's leadership... I at least tried to have a truth finding discussion... He preferred not to attempt to find some sort of answer with me, and focus on positive solutions, but continue with his "terrorism" and "victim" rhetoric.
Oppression breads terrorism.... Dude, I'm gonna keep it brief because I know it'll go over your head... But hopefully someone else will learn something...
The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel.
The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians.
No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers.
What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack.
Israel's oppresion breads terrorism...
Later.
Man Inside The Child,
First, you don't what I use for sources or my education in this particular area so please stop with your baseless assumptions, about my mind or my thoughts on this particular issue.
If you want some good unbiased sources, I'd suggest the Economist and Foreign Affairs Journal. I've read and researched members that write for the Nation and I can tell you honestly, if and I repeat if, that is where you get most of your weekly news information from, your getting a very unbalanced view of things. Try something that is factual and objective(yes its more boring to read sometimes) rather than things that strive for political sensationalism.
Listen, I did read that you thought a Non-violent approach to solving the problem was a good idea. That does not mean I was not going to respond to postings by you that were factually incorrect.
If you want to talk about information going over someone head, why have you not once addressed the problems that Arab countries have caused for the Palestinians and their expulsion of 700,000 Jews from their countries following the 1948 war? Why haven't you addressed this once? Is it going to go over your head again?
Oppression can breed terrorism, but it is not the only thing that does. Also, the oppressor is not always the target of the terrorist. The oppressors are often among the Palestinian people. But through brainwashing and twisted manipulation of Palestinian youth, innocent teens in a disco become the target.
"The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel."
First, it is never an injuctice to defend oneself and to kill or capture terrorist there by preventing certain loss of life from their actions. If Israel indeed targeted civilians and used such brutal force and such little regard for human life, all of the people on the west bank and in Gaza would have been killed decades ago! The oppression you talk of is simply Israely forces going about counter terrorism operations in which Palestinian civilians are unfortunately sometimes killed in the crossfire. Thats not oppression.
Oppression is the targeted killing or torture of innocent human beings. Israel is not targeting innocent people. If they were or that was their goal, it would be easy enough for the Israely Defense force to roll out in their tanks and aircraft and destroy every house and shoot every women, man, and child in the West Bank and Gaza. It might take a couple weeks at most to complete the entire operation.
Thats not what Israel has done or plans to do ever. They do not target innocent civilians. Palestinian target innocent civilians. They target teens in a disco listening to U2. Terrorism or oppression is targeting innocent human beings for torture or murder. Israel does not target innocent human beings, Palestinian terrorist (or as you call them "freedom fighters") do.
There for, oppression is what Israely citizens have suffered from, while Palestinian civilians are primarily killed in accidents in attempts to contain this oppression. Yes, oppression does breed measures of military force from a free and democratic people like Israel. So if your oppression is based on the desire for an independent state, your best chance to achieve that goal is to stop your oppressive attacks. By stopping those attacks, you'll reduce the number of times Israel has to send in military force to root out terrorist. The less often this happens, the smaller the number of acidental Palestinian deaths there will be.
"The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians"
The Israely government does not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killing. With a military force of nearly 150,000 well armed with tanks, helicopters and other weapons, if are daily goal was indiscriminate killing, such a force would wipe out the entire West Bank and Gaza in a matter of days or weeks.
Israely military raids are targeted against terrorist. Yes, accidents happen. Palestinian raids are not targeted at Israely soldiers, they are targeted against Israely childern. Honestly, who is the oppressor?
"No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers."
If what you said was actually so, that all Palestinians are being attacked from helicopters, tanks and other weapons and there is terror every where at any moment from the Israely military, WHY DON"T SUICIDE BOMBERS ATTACK THE ISRAELY ARMY INSTEAD OF CHILDERN IN DISCO'S?
A lot of the blockades and raids by the Israely military would not be happening if the childern in Israely disco's were not being blown to pieces by suicide bombers. Israel has every right to go after terrorist that target innocent civilians. Try telling an Israely family that the Israely military should not do everything in its power to target terrorist in the West Bank and Gaza that seem to only attack their childern and families in disco's and cafe's and nothing else.
"What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack."
I'm 99% sure this was an accident. An accident that would not be happening if the Palestinians had a culture of non-violence. The Israely military conducts raids into Palestinian area's to capture or kill terrorist. The target of the Israely bullets may have been a 1/4 mile away from the Funeral procession or more. When a bullet misses its target, it keeps going until a building or structure or an innocent person crosses its path.
If the Israely soldiers were actually targeting the mourners, none of them would have lived to tell about it.
Regardless, I can promise you this much, Israels Self Defense targeting of terrorist (or as you would say oppression) will not end until there is a negotiated settlement among Israel, Arab Countries, and the Palestinians plus a culture and movement of non-violence among all Palestinians.
In regards to the Israely Military actions and the Palestinian Terrorist actions, it is the Palestinian terrorist that will have to stop first. Thats the important lesson that the Palestinians have failed to learn. Until they learn this lesson, their never going to have an independent State. Targeting innocent childern in disco's is never going to give the Palestinians anything they want.
I've addressed every single paragraph and sentence from your previous posts, so please don't claim that it went over my head or that I did not read it.
First, you don't what I use for sources or my education in this particular area so please stop with your baseless assumptions, about my mind or my thoughts on this particular issue.
If you want some good unbiased sources, I'd suggest the Economist and Foreign Affairs Journal. I've read and researched members that write for the Nation and I can tell you honestly, if and I repeat if, that is where you get most of your weekly news information from, your getting a very unbalanced view of things. Try something that is factual and objective(yes its more boring to read sometimes) rather than things that strive for political sensationalism.
Listen, I did read that you thought a Non-violent approach to solving the problem was a good idea. That does not mean I was not going to respond to postings by you that were factually incorrect.
If you want to talk about information going over someone head, why have you not once addressed the problems that Arab countries have caused for the Palestinians and their expulsion of 700,000 Jews from their countries following the 1948 war? Why haven't you addressed this once? Is it going to go over your head again?
Oppression can breed terrorism, but it is not the only thing that does. Also, the oppressor is not always the target of the terrorist. The oppressors are often among the Palestinian people. But through brainwashing and twisted manipulation of Palestinian youth, innocent teens in a disco become the target.
"The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel."
First, it is never an injuctice to defend oneself and to kill or capture terrorist there by preventing certain loss of life from their actions. If Israel indeed targeted civilians and used such brutal force and such little regard for human life, all of the people on the west bank and in Gaza would have been killed decades ago! The oppression you talk of is simply Israely forces going about counter terrorism operations in which Palestinian civilians are unfortunately sometimes killed in the crossfire. Thats not oppression.
Oppression is the targeted killing or torture of innocent human beings. Israel is not targeting innocent people. If they were or that was their goal, it would be easy enough for the Israely Defense force to roll out in their tanks and aircraft and destroy every house and shoot every women, man, and child in the West Bank and Gaza. It might take a couple weeks at most to complete the entire operation.
Thats not what Israel has done or plans to do ever. They do not target innocent civilians. Palestinian target innocent civilians. They target teens in a disco listening to U2. Terrorism or oppression is targeting innocent human beings for torture or murder. Israel does not target innocent human beings, Palestinian terrorist (or as you call them "freedom fighters") do.
There for, oppression is what Israely citizens have suffered from, while Palestinian civilians are primarily killed in accidents in attempts to contain this oppression. Yes, oppression does breed measures of military force from a free and democratic people like Israel. So if your oppression is based on the desire for an independent state, your best chance to achieve that goal is to stop your oppressive attacks. By stopping those attacks, you'll reduce the number of times Israel has to send in military force to root out terrorist. The less often this happens, the smaller the number of acidental Palestinian deaths there will be.
"The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians"
The Israely government does not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killing. With a military force of nearly 150,000 well armed with tanks, helicopters and other weapons, if are daily goal was indiscriminate killing, such a force would wipe out the entire West Bank and Gaza in a matter of days or weeks.
Israely military raids are targeted against terrorist. Yes, accidents happen. Palestinian raids are not targeted at Israely soldiers, they are targeted against Israely childern. Honestly, who is the oppressor?
"No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers."
If what you said was actually so, that all Palestinians are being attacked from helicopters, tanks and other weapons and there is terror every where at any moment from the Israely military, WHY DON"T SUICIDE BOMBERS ATTACK THE ISRAELY ARMY INSTEAD OF CHILDERN IN DISCO'S?
A lot of the blockades and raids by the Israely military would not be happening if the childern in Israely disco's were not being blown to pieces by suicide bombers. Israel has every right to go after terrorist that target innocent civilians. Try telling an Israely family that the Israely military should not do everything in its power to target terrorist in the West Bank and Gaza that seem to only attack their childern and families in disco's and cafe's and nothing else.
"What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack."
I'm 99% sure this was an accident. An accident that would not be happening if the Palestinians had a culture of non-violence. The Israely military conducts raids into Palestinian area's to capture or kill terrorist. The target of the Israely bullets may have been a 1/4 mile away from the Funeral procession or more. When a bullet misses its target, it keeps going until a building or structure or an innocent person crosses its path.
If the Israely soldiers were actually targeting the mourners, none of them would have lived to tell about it.
Regardless, I can promise you this much, Israels Self Defense targeting of terrorist (or as you would say oppression) will not end until there is a negotiated settlement among Israel, Arab Countries, and the Palestinians plus a culture and movement of non-violence among all Palestinians.
In regards to the Israely Military actions and the Palestinian Terrorist actions, it is the Palestinian terrorist that will have to stop first. Thats the important lesson that the Palestinians have failed to learn. Until they learn this lesson, their never going to have an independent State. Targeting innocent childern in disco's is never going to give the Palestinians anything they want.
I've addressed every single paragraph and sentence from your previous posts, so please don't claim that it went over my head or that I did not read it.
Klaus
Refugee
Let's hope this is good news:
full article at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/24/international/middleeast/24MIDE.html?pagewanted=2&th
full article at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/24/international/middleeast/24MIDE.html?pagewanted=2&th
Man Inside The Suitcase,
But what about the Palestinian Christians who accounted for betweeen 25-30 percent prior to 1948? They've always been around.
I don't think Palestine/Israel should be muslim, jewish, nor christian...
Nevertheless, I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental, let alone bulldozing a home in favour of a new settlement... It is a fact that Sharon has increased the building of new settlements rather than to cut back and try to find a resolve... The Israeli people voted in a mass murderer democratically... A war monger... A man who builds more settlements rather than find some sort of resolve... The Israeli people voted for harder measures against the Palestinians and in turn more settlements... The Israeli people want to live in peace, but that must only be possible when the building of settlements seizes and the continued crimes against humanity comes to a stop in Palestine.
Can I ask you Sting, honestly, do you think Sharon is a man of peace and a man to finally lead Palestine and Israel to a resolve. I've already said that Arafat is not...
Let's move this discussion over to Palestine/Israel sting... I don't think it's fair we're talking about it under this post.
But what about the Palestinian Christians who accounted for betweeen 25-30 percent prior to 1948? They've always been around.
I don't think Palestine/Israel should be muslim, jewish, nor christian...
Nevertheless, I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental, let alone bulldozing a home in favour of a new settlement... It is a fact that Sharon has increased the building of new settlements rather than to cut back and try to find a resolve... The Israeli people voted in a mass murderer democratically... A war monger... A man who builds more settlements rather than find some sort of resolve... The Israeli people voted for harder measures against the Palestinians and in turn more settlements... The Israeli people want to live in peace, but that must only be possible when the building of settlements seizes and the continued crimes against humanity comes to a stop in Palestine.
Can I ask you Sting, honestly, do you think Sharon is a man of peace and a man to finally lead Palestine and Israel to a resolve. I've already said that Arafat is not...
Let's move this discussion over to Palestine/Israel sting... I don't think it's fair we're talking about it under this post.
Man Inside the Suitcase,
Palestinian Christian never accounted for 25 to 30% of the population unless you go back before the Muslim invasion of the region prior to 600 AD.
But despite that, if Palestinian Christians wanted a state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they had every right to form one on the land they owned at the time in 1917. True, there are some that would argue for a combined State of everyone. Arabs usually make that arguement, in fact they argue for a single Arab state from Iran to Morrocco. Sorry but thats not fair to the legitmate rights of other people. Jews had every right to form a state in the area of Israel/Palestine and the United Nations approved of that right. There certainly deserves to be an Arab State and if the Christians had wanted one, a christian state. For those that did not like either of those choices, they had a right to form a state themselves as well. I'd see nothing wrong with having four different states in the area which is nearly 11,000 square miles.
But the Arab and Jews were the only ones with those desires. The two state solution in 1948 was the perfect solution to the problem but the Arabs rejected it. Now the Arabs are asking for less than what they would have recieved in 1948 deal which they rejected. Can't you see the incredible irony and contradiction?
"I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental"
US forces fired on one of their own tanks during the recent war. They shot down one of their fighters. These are accidents. They do happen.
I've explained how a crowd of mourners being shot could accidental. In fact similar things happen in US cities all the time.
If it was not an accident, please produce indisputable evidence that it was not. If the Israely's were really targeting the mourners, they would have killed them all. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Homes of alleged Terrorist are bulldozed. Settlements are built on unoccupied land although it might be owned in some way by Palestinians privately or through local government. I don't support Israely settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, but their numbers are not large, and I actually think its not a problem as long as the Jews are willing to become citizens of an independent Palestinian state.
If Sharon were a mass murdering war monger, all the Palestinians would be dead! Why don't you understand this. Its your mistaken opinion that he is such. 5 million well educated Israely citizens have a different opinion. Perhaps its time you took note of that.
Whats more of a crime against humanity, the accidental death of a Palestinian civilian in a raid that was TARGETING terrorist, or a terrorist who walks into a disco to TARGET and KILL teens listening to U2?
Sharon is a man of peace. If he wasn't, considering the military force he has under him, all the palestinians would be dead. I disagree with Sharon's settlements, but this disagreement about what the borders of an independent Palestine can be resolved in negotiations. The retarded and cowardly acts of Suicide bombing are not something that can be netotiated on. Those that support and participate in such action must be captured and killed like the animals they are. The USA saw what this type of action was like on 911.
Palestinian Christian never accounted for 25 to 30% of the population unless you go back before the Muslim invasion of the region prior to 600 AD.
But despite that, if Palestinian Christians wanted a state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they had every right to form one on the land they owned at the time in 1917. True, there are some that would argue for a combined State of everyone. Arabs usually make that arguement, in fact they argue for a single Arab state from Iran to Morrocco. Sorry but thats not fair to the legitmate rights of other people. Jews had every right to form a state in the area of Israel/Palestine and the United Nations approved of that right. There certainly deserves to be an Arab State and if the Christians had wanted one, a christian state. For those that did not like either of those choices, they had a right to form a state themselves as well. I'd see nothing wrong with having four different states in the area which is nearly 11,000 square miles.
But the Arab and Jews were the only ones with those desires. The two state solution in 1948 was the perfect solution to the problem but the Arabs rejected it. Now the Arabs are asking for less than what they would have recieved in 1948 deal which they rejected. Can't you see the incredible irony and contradiction?
"I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental"
US forces fired on one of their own tanks during the recent war. They shot down one of their fighters. These are accidents. They do happen.
I've explained how a crowd of mourners being shot could accidental. In fact similar things happen in US cities all the time.
If it was not an accident, please produce indisputable evidence that it was not. If the Israely's were really targeting the mourners, they would have killed them all. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Homes of alleged Terrorist are bulldozed. Settlements are built on unoccupied land although it might be owned in some way by Palestinians privately or through local government. I don't support Israely settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, but their numbers are not large, and I actually think its not a problem as long as the Jews are willing to become citizens of an independent Palestinian state.
If Sharon were a mass murdering war monger, all the Palestinians would be dead! Why don't you understand this. Its your mistaken opinion that he is such. 5 million well educated Israely citizens have a different opinion. Perhaps its time you took note of that.
Whats more of a crime against humanity, the accidental death of a Palestinian civilian in a raid that was TARGETING terrorist, or a terrorist who walks into a disco to TARGET and KILL teens listening to U2?
Sharon is a man of peace. If he wasn't, considering the military force he has under him, all the palestinians would be dead. I disagree with Sharon's settlements, but this disagreement about what the borders of an independent Palestine can be resolved in negotiations. The retarded and cowardly acts of Suicide bombing are not something that can be netotiated on. Those that support and participate in such action must be captured and killed like the animals they are. The USA saw what this type of action was like on 911.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
sting
Dude your stats are incorrect, perhaps you should do a little research as I do and maybe your argument would have some merit:
Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians...
Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?
Check out my answer in Dread sox latest post for a further analyis on the building of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza... For now it's late, and I've gotta go.
In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over
714,000 Palestinian became
refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all
Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.
Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages...
Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.
"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. "
It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches.
Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalem?s Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawi?s study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners.
To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace.
Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.
Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs.
A man of peace???
Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies.
Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements.....
Get it together... Building on empty land... Just admit it when you don't have an argument. Sharon is a man of peace. Please dude.... Don't just call a murderer a man of peace... Please sting, I would have expected slightly more from you.
gotta go
Dude your stats are incorrect, perhaps you should do a little research as I do and maybe your argument would have some merit:
Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians...
Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?
Check out my answer in Dread sox latest post for a further analyis on the building of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza... For now it's late, and I've gotta go.
In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over
714,000 Palestinian became
refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all
Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.
Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages...
Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.
"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. "
It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches.
Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalem?s Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawi?s study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners.
To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace.
Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.
Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs.
A man of peace???
Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies.
Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements.....
Get it together... Building on empty land... Just admit it when you don't have an argument. Sharon is a man of peace. Please dude.... Don't just call a murderer a man of peace... Please sting, I would have expected slightly more from you.
gotta go
Last edited:
Man Inside The Child,
Do you read my posts at all? Why have you yet to comment once, even once, about what Arab countries have done to Israel over the past 50 years? Why have you yet to comment on the 700,000 Jews that were evicted from Arab countries after the 1948 war?
"Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians..."
What the hell does this pertain to? When did I ever say that this was not so? Again, did you read my posts at all?
"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though.
"In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over
714,000 Palestinian became
refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all
Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.
Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages... "
Well in you prior posts, you stated that Christians made up 25% to 30% of all the people living in the Area of Israel/Palestine. Thats obviously incorrect. The above statement is more likely. But again, whats your point? There would not be any refugees if the Arabs had not attacked Israel in 1948!!! The whole crises here was created by the Arabs decision not to accept the UN Peace plan in 1947/1948! Now the Arabs and the Palestinians want a deal that is less favorable then the one they were offered 50 years ago! Its obvious who made the "mistake" here.
"Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.
"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. " "
Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.
"It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches."
"Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalem?s Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawi?s study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners."
I certainly agree that these Christians should be compensated just as the 700,000 Jews who were pushed out of their homes in other Arab countries after the 1948 war should be compensated as well. Do is it not bother you in any way what Arabs did to Jews after they lost the 1948 war. These Jews were living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Israel and yet they were pushed out of the countries they were living in simply because of the crises and war was lost by the Arabs against Israel! I'm still waiting for you comment on this and other Arab countries attacks on Israel at least once!
"To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace."
"Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank."
"Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs."
Most of the 5 million Israely's that voted for Sharon do believe he is not a war monger or guilty of the crimes you alleged that he is. Remember, there are millions of Israely's who are well educated and aware of the facts and they have chosen him as their leader. Perhaps its time you took your blinders off and examined why these intelligent, well educated, free thinking people have chosen Sharon as their leader.
Indisputible evidence has not been found yet to link Sharon to the massacres. There is only circumstantial and unproven evidence. Certainly, if Sharon or anyone were to be found guilty of such massacres, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm surprised by the rush to judgement from a law student.
I'll say this again as I have said it before. Listen! If Israel did have a "final Solution" plan, they would have completed it over 3 decades ago. It would only take the Israely military a few days or weeks, to kill or drive out all 3 million Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza! WHEN are you going to at least respond or acknowledge this fact?
"Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies."
"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."
"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."
If and when Israely soldiers mistreat Palestinians as you mentioned above they should be punished. But often these alleged crimes are simply lies coming from Palestinians. The truth in many of these situations is difficult to determine.
The truth in the murder of teens in disco's by suicide bombers is not difficult to determine at all. Suicide bombers target innocent civilians. The Israely Defense Force Targets terrorist. I would think as a law student, you would be able to understand the difference.
I look forward to your response and hope you at least read my posts and respond to some of my unanswered questions, as I have done for you.
Do you read my posts at all? Why have you yet to comment once, even once, about what Arab countries have done to Israel over the past 50 years? Why have you yet to comment on the 700,000 Jews that were evicted from Arab countries after the 1948 war?
"Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians..."
What the hell does this pertain to? When did I ever say that this was not so? Again, did you read my posts at all?
"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though.
"In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over
714,000 Palestinian became
refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all
Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.
Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages... "
Well in you prior posts, you stated that Christians made up 25% to 30% of all the people living in the Area of Israel/Palestine. Thats obviously incorrect. The above statement is more likely. But again, whats your point? There would not be any refugees if the Arabs had not attacked Israel in 1948!!! The whole crises here was created by the Arabs decision not to accept the UN Peace plan in 1947/1948! Now the Arabs and the Palestinians want a deal that is less favorable then the one they were offered 50 years ago! Its obvious who made the "mistake" here.
"Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.
"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. " "
Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.
"It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches."
"Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalem?s Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawi?s study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners."
I certainly agree that these Christians should be compensated just as the 700,000 Jews who were pushed out of their homes in other Arab countries after the 1948 war should be compensated as well. Do is it not bother you in any way what Arabs did to Jews after they lost the 1948 war. These Jews were living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Israel and yet they were pushed out of the countries they were living in simply because of the crises and war was lost by the Arabs against Israel! I'm still waiting for you comment on this and other Arab countries attacks on Israel at least once!
"To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace."
"Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank."
"Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs."
Most of the 5 million Israely's that voted for Sharon do believe he is not a war monger or guilty of the crimes you alleged that he is. Remember, there are millions of Israely's who are well educated and aware of the facts and they have chosen him as their leader. Perhaps its time you took your blinders off and examined why these intelligent, well educated, free thinking people have chosen Sharon as their leader.
Indisputible evidence has not been found yet to link Sharon to the massacres. There is only circumstantial and unproven evidence. Certainly, if Sharon or anyone were to be found guilty of such massacres, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm surprised by the rush to judgement from a law student.
I'll say this again as I have said it before. Listen! If Israel did have a "final Solution" plan, they would have completed it over 3 decades ago. It would only take the Israely military a few days or weeks, to kill or drive out all 3 million Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza! WHEN are you going to at least respond or acknowledge this fact?
"Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies."
"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."
"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."
If and when Israely soldiers mistreat Palestinians as you mentioned above they should be punished. But often these alleged crimes are simply lies coming from Palestinians. The truth in many of these situations is difficult to determine.
The truth in the murder of teens in disco's by suicide bombers is not difficult to determine at all. Suicide bombers target innocent civilians. The Israely Defense Force Targets terrorist. I would think as a law student, you would be able to understand the difference.
I look forward to your response and hope you at least read my posts and respond to some of my unanswered questions, as I have done for you.
Scarletwine
New Yorker
STING2
"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
MIAC is correct. Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people.
You should watch this documentary for an unbiased view of the conflict. It has many Israeli people on it also, even families of people killed by suicide bomberss.
'PALESTINE IS STILL THE ISSUE' BROADCAST AROUND THE WORLD
John Pilger's film, Palestine Is Still The Issue, is being broadcast in countries around the world, including Britain, Europe, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and across the Middle East.
The film sees Pilger return to the Middle East, twenty-five years after first reporting from the region, to ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land.
Click here for more about the film.
To purchase a copy of the film email clip_sales@carltontv.co.u k.
"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
MIAC is correct. Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people.
You should watch this documentary for an unbiased view of the conflict. It has many Israeli people on it also, even families of people killed by suicide bomberss.
'PALESTINE IS STILL THE ISSUE' BROADCAST AROUND THE WORLD
John Pilger's film, Palestine Is Still The Issue, is being broadcast in countries around the world, including Britain, Europe, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and across the Middle East.
The film sees Pilger return to the Middle East, twenty-five years after first reporting from the region, to ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land.
Click here for more about the film.
To purchase a copy of the film email clip_sales@carltontv.co.u k.
Scarletwine,
"Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people." Because this film which you claim is unbiased says so? The premise of the film is already biased. "ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land." Already from that subject line, it has already casts the Palestinians as the victim and not the Israely's. So they interview Israely's and victims of suicide bombers? Yes you might find a diversity of views among such people, but I already know which people they selectively decided to talk to and what their views were without having watched the film.
"Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people." Because this film which you claim is unbiased says so? The premise of the film is already biased. "ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land." Already from that subject line, it has already casts the Palestinians as the victim and not the Israely's. So they interview Israely's and victims of suicide bombers? Yes you might find a diversity of views among such people, but I already know which people they selectively decided to talk to and what their views were without having watched the film.
Man Inside The Child
The Fly
Sting
I missed your reply to this earlier...
Ok, I was wrong about the 25-30 percent Palestinians... I was told otherwise and perhaps misunderstood a professor.
My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Many of the articles i read are written by jews in fact who desperately want the Israeli government to end their brutal occupation and bring peace to the region.
STING2: "Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though. "
My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Neverthless I'm happy to hear that you do not support the building of new settlements on Palestinian territory, that's a start, that's cool... I'd go one step further and remove all settlements on Palestinian territory as well. If you want I can look several articles up for you, just let me know.
STING on the Economist article: Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.
Perhaps the houses should be "removed" when the "peace deal" is actually complete... The people who lived in those bulldozed homes didn't know of any peace deal... nor one that is on its way... How about I send someone to bulldoze your house (maybe with you still inside) and tell you that the destruction of your home is for a highway that may or may not come up... lol. what about the value of your home that you didn't receive, what about your family history that may have been on that home, what about the belongings in your home, what about the injustice of the whole mess... What would you do?
As far as 700 000 jews being pushed out of their homes... two wrongs don't make a right and I agree that the expelling of jews around the arab world was not fair.
I disagree with you on Sharon, and he has Palestinian blood all over him. He's been a war criminal from the start and Israelis should be ashamed to elect such a monster as prime minister.
Here's a little clip for ya.
From Israeli Jornalist Jeffrey Stienburg (not some Palestinian)
In 1953, Sharon founded "Unit 101," a secret death squad within the IDF that committed several mass murders of civilians. In October 1953, Sharon's "Unit 101" massacred 66 innocent civilians during a cross-border raid into the Jordanian West Bank village of Qibya. Under intense machine-gun fire, local residents were driven into their homes, which were then blown up around them, killing the occupants by burying them alive in piles of rubble. The April 2002 IDF massacre at the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin was, in fact, modeled on Sharon's "Unit 101" operations at Qibya.
In June 1974, Sharon personally led a group of settlers to establish an illegal outpost near the West Bank town of Nablus. It was the first of many such ventures that Sharon would sponsor, under the rhubric of the drive to "Judaize the territories."
In 1977 as agriculture ministure, Sharon launched a massive expansion of Jewish "agricultural settlements" throughout the West Bank and Gaza. During 1977-81, more than 25,000 new settlers mostly members of the Gush Emunim moved into the occupied territories. The Gush Emunim settlers formed into death squads explicitly modelled on Sharon's old "Unit 101." They would play a pivotal role in a filthy Anglo-American Zionist criminal enterprise known as "Landscam" (click for more). Killing innocent Palestinians for their homes, then destroying them.
On Sept. 19, 1982, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 521, harshly condemning the massacres at the camps. In a distant mirror of the current genocide in Jenin, Ramallah, and Bethlehem, Sharon ignored the international condemnations. Today, Sharon faces war crimes prosecution in court in Belgium (click for more) for his role in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, as the result of a lawsuit filed on June 18, 2001 by 23 survivors of the attacks.
And it goes on to when he finally becomes prime minister in 2000, and continues to build settlements, and murder Palestinians
Do you really think this man can lead Israel to a peaceful resolve? Do you think he wants resolve?
"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."
"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."
You call such autrosities lies by the Palestinians... I don't think that's fair.... I don't know what to say really... If you don't want to see the truth don't... I do agree Israeli teens should live in peace... I am not an advocate of suicide bombing... But as I've said before, the oppressor creates the suicide bomber... You've got a 70% poverty rate in Palestine, 50% of children are malnourished... There homes have been bombed and destroyed, they've been dispossessed of their homes and families. It is from such a culture that the suicide bomber arises... Israel's oppression, aggreesion and humiliation made the suicide bomber.
I missed your reply to this earlier...
Ok, I was wrong about the 25-30 percent Palestinians... I was told otherwise and perhaps misunderstood a professor.
My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Many of the articles i read are written by jews in fact who desperately want the Israeli government to end their brutal occupation and bring peace to the region.
STING2: "Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"
I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though. "
My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Neverthless I'm happy to hear that you do not support the building of new settlements on Palestinian territory, that's a start, that's cool... I'd go one step further and remove all settlements on Palestinian territory as well. If you want I can look several articles up for you, just let me know.
STING on the Economist article: Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.
Perhaps the houses should be "removed" when the "peace deal" is actually complete... The people who lived in those bulldozed homes didn't know of any peace deal... nor one that is on its way... How about I send someone to bulldoze your house (maybe with you still inside) and tell you that the destruction of your home is for a highway that may or may not come up... lol. what about the value of your home that you didn't receive, what about your family history that may have been on that home, what about the belongings in your home, what about the injustice of the whole mess... What would you do?
As far as 700 000 jews being pushed out of their homes... two wrongs don't make a right and I agree that the expelling of jews around the arab world was not fair.
I disagree with you on Sharon, and he has Palestinian blood all over him. He's been a war criminal from the start and Israelis should be ashamed to elect such a monster as prime minister.
Here's a little clip for ya.
From Israeli Jornalist Jeffrey Stienburg (not some Palestinian)
In 1953, Sharon founded "Unit 101," a secret death squad within the IDF that committed several mass murders of civilians. In October 1953, Sharon's "Unit 101" massacred 66 innocent civilians during a cross-border raid into the Jordanian West Bank village of Qibya. Under intense machine-gun fire, local residents were driven into their homes, which were then blown up around them, killing the occupants by burying them alive in piles of rubble. The April 2002 IDF massacre at the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin was, in fact, modeled on Sharon's "Unit 101" operations at Qibya.
In June 1974, Sharon personally led a group of settlers to establish an illegal outpost near the West Bank town of Nablus. It was the first of many such ventures that Sharon would sponsor, under the rhubric of the drive to "Judaize the territories."
In 1977 as agriculture ministure, Sharon launched a massive expansion of Jewish "agricultural settlements" throughout the West Bank and Gaza. During 1977-81, more than 25,000 new settlers mostly members of the Gush Emunim moved into the occupied territories. The Gush Emunim settlers formed into death squads explicitly modelled on Sharon's old "Unit 101." They would play a pivotal role in a filthy Anglo-American Zionist criminal enterprise known as "Landscam" (click for more). Killing innocent Palestinians for their homes, then destroying them.
On Sept. 19, 1982, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 521, harshly condemning the massacres at the camps. In a distant mirror of the current genocide in Jenin, Ramallah, and Bethlehem, Sharon ignored the international condemnations. Today, Sharon faces war crimes prosecution in court in Belgium (click for more) for his role in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, as the result of a lawsuit filed on June 18, 2001 by 23 survivors of the attacks.
And it goes on to when he finally becomes prime minister in 2000, and continues to build settlements, and murder Palestinians
Do you really think this man can lead Israel to a peaceful resolve? Do you think he wants resolve?
"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."
"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."
You call such autrosities lies by the Palestinians... I don't think that's fair.... I don't know what to say really... If you don't want to see the truth don't... I do agree Israeli teens should live in peace... I am not an advocate of suicide bombing... But as I've said before, the oppressor creates the suicide bomber... You've got a 70% poverty rate in Palestine, 50% of children are malnourished... There homes have been bombed and destroyed, they've been dispossessed of their homes and families. It is from such a culture that the suicide bomber arises... Israel's oppression, aggreesion and humiliation made the suicide bomber.
Scarletwine
New Yorker
STING2 said:
I think that is a little short sighted of you. Unless you have actually seen the film you can't possible make a definitive judgement on it. The film may have been titled after it was filmed based on information learned.
I don't think bias necessarily makes things untrue. Maybe you could free your mind enough to see the other side. That was what I was suggesting.
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