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Old 04-26-2003, 04:21 PM   #31
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Man Inside The Child,

As far as Sharon, its never been proven that he has actually murdered anyone. Israely citizens have heard all the stories and alleged crimes. They have looked at the facts like any citizen of a democratic nation and made a judgement based on those fact of whether Sharon is #1 a war criminal who should be locked up and #2 Whether he is fit to be the leader of Israel and if so, if he is the best leader among the candidates.

Israely citizens having study the facts have colectively concluded that there is no proof that Sharon has engaged in any war crimes. They have also decided that at this time in history he would make the best leader for Israel.

You could perhaps say I am wrong and don't know the facts, but you could not say that about over 3 million voters in Israel. Israel is a free and open society and the people of Israel have determined at this time, that Sharon is not a war criminal and is the best leader for them.

In any combat situation in which civilians are killed. One side can always make the allegation that they were murdered instead of it being an accident. If it was really the intent of the Israely Defense Force to murder Palestinians, they all would have been murdered about 3 decades ago. A military with the equipment and size of the Israel Defense Force could wipe out the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip in less than a couple of weeks. This is an indisputable fact which I don't think your recognizing.

By the way, there was NO MASSACRE AT JENIN! It is a proven fact by the United Nations that no massacre took place at Jenin. Yet your citing sources that list Jenin as a massacre which throws that sources credibility completely into doubt. Only 48 civilians out of tens of thousands of civilians were killed at Jenin. In not a single of the 48 dead civilians was it ever determined that the person was killed in nothing more than an accident. Israels tactics at Jenin saved lives. The only one who put the people there in jeopardy was the terrorist. Why did the terrorist decide to make a defensive stand in the most heavily populated part of the city? Why did they not go outside the city to fight the Israely's? I think its rather obvious.

"You call such autrosities lies by the Palestinians... I don't think that's fair.... I don't know what to say really... If you don't want to see the truth don't... I do agree Israeli teens should live in peace... I am not an advocate of suicide bombing... But as I've said before, the oppressor creates the suicide bomber... You've got a 70% poverty rate in Palestine, 50% of children are malnourished... There homes have been bombed and destroyed, they've been dispossessed of their homes and families. It is from such a culture that the suicide bomber arises... Israel's oppression, aggreesion and humiliation made the suicide bomber."

Listen, if an Israely soldier intentionally killed an innocent Palestinian, the burden of proof is on the Palestinians to prove that, that is indeed what happened. I don't think its fair to accuse someone of genocide and slaughter when they have in fact not engaged in those things. The United Nations determined that only 48 civilians were killed at Jenin. All it is believe were killed in crossfire and by accident. Do you believe in the idea of "innocent until proven guilty"? Most Israely soldiers are innocent of any crimes. But if there are those that are guilty, then they must be proven guilty and punished accordingly.

With suicide bombing, its rather obvious who is guilty. There over a Billion people in other parts of the world who live in absolute poverty! They don't have houses to live in, supermarket to go to for food. They would consider the conditions the Palestinians live under to be a paradise. Yet despite their much poorer conditions, they do not strap bombs to themselve and walk into disco's to blow up teens. The Idea that poverty causes suicide bombing is false! If it were true, the action would not be limited to the middle east.

If you were the head of the Israely Defense Force and had the responsibility of catching and killing terrorist who hide in heavily populated area's, what would you do? Or, lets take it out of the middle east. If you were the head of the police department of your local community and there were terrorist blowing up your supermarkets and pubs, what actions as a police officer would you take to defend your community from those that are trying to kill everyone in your community?

It is important to realize that "oppression" of the Palestinian people does not necessarily come from Israel. It really comes from the leaders and culture of Palestinians that have rejected every peace deal they have been offered over the past 55 years and who still feel violence is the only answer to their problems. After 55 years, no non-violent movement exist in the West Bank and Gaza. Its unfortunate, but I think those that might have been supportive of a such a movement may have been murdered by other Palestinians or scared into silence by them.

When Palestinians found that two Palestinians had helped the Israely's catch terrorist, they rounded them up and beat them to death in the streets. Nope, no trial, no "innocent until proven guilty", "they helped the Israely's in some way and now were going to beat them to death in the middle of the street"! I saw them do it on TV. What type of civilized society does this to their own people? If you want to know why there has been 55 years of war and no acceptence of various peace plans, if you want to know why there continues to be widespread poverty in the West Bank and Gaza, you don't need to look further than that action.

I've read the history and attempted to analyze the whole issue from the perspective of Palestinians. I did not initially before I researched this area necessarily favor Israel, although I do have members in my family that our Jewish, if that makes me biased, then I guess I'm guilty. No one wants to be on the side of injustice and from my research into this area, Israel has been unfairly treated and is the victim of the past 50 years. There are few countries over the past 50 years that have had to survive the odds Israel has. How many countries have been invaded by 5 other countries on their first day of independence?
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Old 04-29-2003, 09:30 PM   #32
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04.29.03

ANOTHER DAY
















ANOTHER SUICIDE BOMBING.












EXPLAIN THIS ONE.
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Old 04-29-2003, 09:45 PM   #33
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happy holocaust rememberance day...
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Old 04-29-2003, 09:46 PM   #34
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GW Bush got it right this time, when he said bombers do not want peace.

There are right wing extremist Israelis who do not want peace, also.

Taking property in the West Bank and Gaza and demolishing their homes, then building housing for settlers is like pouring gasoline on a fire.


There is a reason why suicide bombers are Palestinians and not Egyptians.
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Old 04-30-2003, 04:23 AM   #35
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ouizy:

"revenge" for the yesturday rocket strike against a Palestinensian car?

and (from NY times)
Quote:
Mr. Abbas called for the collection of illegal weapons and other security measures sought by Israel, and he made public a message he had previously delivered privately to Hamas and other violent groups. He has urged these groups to join the political process, insisting that each faction cannot decide for itself what the policy should be toward Israel.

"There will be no other decision-making authority except for the Palestinian Authority," Mr. Abbas said. "On this land and for this people, there is only one authority, one law, and one democratic and national decision that applies to us all."

Hamas leaders say they reject this approach and refuse to disarm. Mr. Abbas's own faction, Fatah, is conducting internal discussions with its armed wing, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, Fatah leaders said.
So he dosn't get support from some of the extremists for his peace program (a few hour before the terror attack Mahmoud Abbas, denounced terrorism "by any party and in all its shapes")

So some of the violent palestinensians want mr abbas to fail because they'd loose their power if he wouldn't fail.

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Old 04-30-2003, 11:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
"revenge" for the yesturday rocket strike against a Palestinensian car?
So, in middle eastern math, a car carrying militants is equal to a group of civilians.


Nice statements by Mr. Abbas. I hope he can reign in those factions who do not want peace and live for the destruction of Israel.
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Old 04-30-2003, 12:20 PM   #37
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Abbas has a long road ahead of him, and his statements seem promising so far. Let's just hope he doesn't get assassinated.

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Old 05-01-2003, 01:56 PM   #38
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good point melon.

I did not know of any rocket attack, I did however know of a suicide bombing on the same day the man who is going to bring you (the Palestinians) what you want took office.

Seems a bit messed up to me.
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Old 05-01-2003, 02:27 PM   #39
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It isn't messed up, considering that no matter how good a state's security and government may be, but when you have militia organizations that act independent of the government that is all but destroyed, due to Israeli retaliatory strikes, what do you expect? This isn't going to be a quick process, and I think it is naive to expect that Abbas is going to reform a nation on "Day 1" of his job.

Israel, for its own part, has not arrested or prosecuted its own citizens who act independent of the government, and who take the law into their own hands. I saw the OFAC list that proves it.

This is going to be a long process and both sides are going to have to do their part.

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Old 05-01-2003, 05:24 PM   #40
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ouizy:
did you hear about the strike of the israeli army today? this night (according to palestinensian news) they went into the gaza-area and killed 14 people, many more injured.

Israel said the houses of these families were hamas-symphatisants and the soldiers just returned the fire.

In hebron they killed another 2 palestinensians and destroyed a house of a hamas leader.

anan called both actions "violation of international rights" and said that they were counterproductive to start the palestine/israel peace-proces

melon:
and.. in addition it's a bad attitude if a government starts to execute people before a fair trial

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Old 05-01-2003, 05:47 PM   #41
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Klaus,

If it was the objective of the Israely Defense Force to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, everyone on the West Bank and Gaza strip would have been killed 3 decades ago.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:33 PM   #42
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Sting: right.
I don't think that they kill them for the fun of it, but i think they accept lots of "colateral damage"
And this is the seed for new violence, which is the seed for more brute force from isreal...
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:39 PM   #43
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The seed for violence was planted long ago. "Collateral damage" is the fertilizer.
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Israel said the houses of these families were hamas-symphatisants and the soldiers just returned the fire.

Quote:
In hebron they killed another 2 palestinensians and destroyed a house of a hamas leader.

yes, and?
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Old 05-01-2003, 06:56 PM   #45
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ouizy: ..nothing special, just the next round of the revenge for the revenge of the revenge...

not verry productive for the peace process and it dosn't make it easier for moderate men like Mr. Abbas

As i mentioned before, the extremists need the oponent extremists to justify their doings

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