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Old 03-23-2004, 05:57 PM   #31
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While they should have the right to protest....i would not dewny them the right to pull their own permit, because it does look to me, based on the photos that their AGENDA was not about Peace.


If I were organizing a peace protest.....I would certainly not want some of the signs portrayed last weekend allowed. As the organizer of the protest, I would welcome all who were there in the interests of peace. However, some of the groups in the picture seem to have other agendas.

To me, it tarnishes the protest, because it appears that it was not about peace. Yes, I recognize that this is a small sample size but it is how I feel.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:35 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
While they should have the right to protest....i would not dewny them the right to pull their own permit, because it does look to me, based on the photos that their AGENDA was not about Peace.
People have different ideas about how to achieve peace. To someone who's a revolutionary Marxist, you can't have peace under capitalism and thus the only way to achieve peace is to have a different system of economic organisation. Now obviously you don't agree with that, but that doesn't mean that those people don't want peace, it simply means they have a different view of how a peaceful world can be achieved.

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If I were organizing a peace protest.....I would certainly not want some of the signs portrayed last weekend allowed. As the organizer of the protest, I would welcome all who were there in the interests of peace. However, some of the groups in the picture seem to have other agendas.
I think a lot of your questions come out of the idea that there is some individual or small group of individuals who are the "organisers" of a protest. In fact that's often only true for the largest protests. I've been on many local protests which were entirely spontaneous, the protests on the day when the bombing began are a prime example. The "organisers" of a protest will often be as diverse as the people joining the protest, I personally have worked with people from groups as diverse as Christian CND (campaign for nuclear disarmament) and the Communist Party of Britain.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the organisation of a protest isn't about an individual organising a protest and enforcing their ideas about what the protest should be about. Frankly, if you've got a group of several thousand people (several hundred thousand people in many cases) then no "organiser" will be able to force their will on those people.

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To me, it tarnishes the protest, because it appears that it was not about peace. Yes, I recognize that this is a small sample size but it is how I feel.
It is about peace. The thing that unites those diverse groups is a desire for peace. They disagree about why it is important, they disagree about how to achieve it, but they all agree on one thing: the desire to stop the war and find a peaceful solution.

Yes, you get some people with extremely wacky ideas, but as you say they are an absolutely TINY minority. When you consider that millions of people demonstrated last weekend, the five or ten signs you posted pale into insignificance. I think putting up with a few nutty protestors is a fair price for enabling millions of people who oppose war to come together and express their opinion.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:23 PM   #33
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How about the "Peace" protestors in this photo from Toronto.

http://www.makingthelinks.tyo.ca/mod...view_album.php



[Q]4. What is The Muslims Duty towards His Country?

Islam makes it a duty upon all Muslims to work to change their countries from Dar al-Kufr to Dar al-Islam, and this can be achieved by establishing the Islamic State i.e. the Khilafah, and by electing a Khaleefah and taking a bay’ah on him that he will rule by the Word of Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta’Ala) i.e. he will implement Islamic laws in the country where the Khilafah has been established. Then the Muslims should work with the Khilafah to combine the rest of the Islamic countries with it, hence the countries will become Dar al-Islam and they will then carry Islam to the world through invitation and jihad.

5. What is the Khilafah

The Khilafah is the global leadership for all the Muslims in the world. Its role is to establish the laws of the Islamic Shari‘ah and to carry the da‘wah of Islam to the world. [/Q]

[Q]7. Is the establishment of a Khaleefah an obligation upon all Muslims in the world?

The establishment of a Khaleefah is an obligation upon all Muslims in the world. Performing this duty, like any of the duties prescribed by Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta’Ala) upon the Muslims, is an urgent obligation in which there can be no choice or complacency. Negligence in performing this duty is one of the greatest sins, for which Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta’Ala) punishes severely.
[/Q]

http://www.khilafah.com/home/categor...D=2714&TagID=2

Now as I read more about this.....they list all of the basic forms of world governement and say that they are not acceptable forms of governement and detail why.

After doing further research I came across the flag that is associated with this word:



And wouldn't you know it....there in this sites explination of the flag and its meaning is this quote:

[Q]I have found in several "hard Islamic" websites the symbol of a white Taliban flag crossed with its inverted colour version (probably identified as Al-Qaeda flag): black background with shahada in white. I do not know if this flag is recognised by Al-Qaeda; but it is normally flying in pro-Al-Qaeda sites.
Santiago Tazon, 17 November 2001 [/Q]

And if you look at the W in the initial photograph....a very interesting Symbol appears.....I see the top portion of the "W" as representative of the "al-Qaeda" unofficial flag. think I am stretching it. I doubt it.



And here we have Osama in front of the black portion of the flag. if you do a web search, there are many pictures of him in front of this Flag.
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:42 PM   #34
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Further research indicates the white portion represents Jihad and the black portion represents Islamic Government. jihad for islamic World Governement.

Sounds peaceful.

That "W" on the sign symbolizes quite a bit.
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Old 03-23-2004, 10:07 PM   #35
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You do get some absolute whackos at peace demonstrations. Some of them advocate violent overthrows of governments because they want to wipe capitalism off the map and "stop imperialism", like Fizz said. I couldn't stand having to put up with those fg Spartacists at the meeting in Ohio, I had a *traumatic* confrontation with them and my friends actually had to get me *drunk* to calm down after the incident. If I could have kept those frs away from the meeting I would have. But I couldn't. When you're organizing for a broad-based thing like "let's stop the war in Iraq" you're going to get people with all sorts of agendas that loosely fit the "anti-war" agenda of the peace movement. I remember "Kill the Klan" signs at anti-racist protests 20 years ago. The same idea--"kill the Klan" was pretty antithetical to what I believed then, and still believe. I hated that .I wish these whackos were not in the same universe with me, but unfortunately they're out there in PoliticsLand. I don't like it either but I can't wave a magic wand and make them go away. If I could I would.
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:11 PM   #36
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Dread, I viewed the photo's you have posted and your right, it's pathetic. No one was carrying a sign, which protested aganist the criminal acts which have been commited for years, by the Taliban or Al Queda. They compare the U.S. government to nazi's, well what the hell do they think of Bin Ladin and Saddem Hussan? Do they elevate them to sainthood?
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Old 03-23-2004, 11:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inis
Dread, I viewed the photo's you have posted and your right, it's pathetic. No one was carrying a sign, which protested aganist the criminal acts which have been commited for years, by the Taliban or Al Queda. They compare the U.S. government to nazi's, well what the hell do they think of Bin Ladin and Saddem Hussan? Do they elevate them to sainthood?
Yes because that would be the only logical step, right?
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:41 AM   #38
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Like I said: you get some people with extremely wacky ideas on antiwar demos. Big deal. I could post some appalling comments which have been made by people who support the war (along the lines of "Iraqis aren't Americans, therefore their lives are unimportant, therefore it doesn't matter how many of them we kill" and more that are so digusting I don't intend to post them here) but what's the point?
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Old 03-24-2004, 05:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inis
Dread, I viewed the photo's you have posted and your right, it's pathetic. No one was carrying a sign, which protested aganist the criminal acts which have been commited for years, by the Taliban or Al Queda. They compare the U.S. government to nazi's, well what the hell do they think of Bin Ladin and Saddem Hussan? Do they elevate them to sainthood?


I oppose Bush, Blair, Aznar, Berlusconi, the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Saddam, and also orcs.

Happy now?
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:32 AM   #40
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We should all be wary of those who wan't war and have no concept of what war really is. It is never a clear cut good versus evil battle no matter what anybody tells you. Because we live in a society where war gets sanitized into a media event it is even more important to have people openly question and oppose it, it may frustrate some and infuriate others but those who ask the hard questions and those that put up utterly ridiculous and offensive signs give us a frame of reference that we can find the best point of view to watch. Plus its fun to confound idiots with logic and debate properly against someone with conviction.

EDIT: I put anybody who takes John Pilger at face value in the first category.

Also just a little thing FizzingWhizzbees, I love the Mark Twain (a true American in the best sense of the word) quote but your date of writing of 1916 is a little posthumous for my tastes, is it a typo or is that a date of publication or is my info totally off?
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:58 AM   #41
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Also just a little thing FizzingWhizzbees, I love the Mark Twain (a true American in the best sense of the word) quote but your date of writing of 1916 is a little posthumous for my tastes, is it a typo or is that a date of publication or is my info totally off?
Sorry, it's actually a publication date. Although "published in 1916" probably doesn't have the same ring to it so I think I'll just take the date out of my signature.
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:10 AM   #42
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These wacky people are calling for an Islamic governement ruled by one man. They oppose democracy, republics, and monarchy sharing power with a parliament. they believe it is their duty, their obligation to make this governement occur.

They would deny you and I our rights, and establish Islamic law.

My point....I think is clear....I would not want them in my "Peace" march because they are not seeking peace.
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
These wacky people are calling for an Islamic governement ruled by one man. They oppose democracy, republics, and monarchy sharing power with a parliament. they believe it is their duty, their obligation to make this governement occur.

They would deny you and I our rights, and establish Islamic law.

My point....I think is clear....I would not want them in my "Peace" march because they are not seeking peace.
I get it Dread. The point I was trying to make was that I want these people in the demonstrations I go to about like I want a hole in my head. They are and I don't like them. Unfortunately we're stuck with them.
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Old 03-24-2004, 12:14 PM   #44
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Like I said: you get some people with extremely wacky ideas on antiwar demos. Big deal.
well, since some of those signs are absolutely revolting it is sort of a big deal

at least if I was president of the US or the PM of England and people would say stuff like that about me because they vehemently disagree with what I think is right, I wouldn't be too blasé about this
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:11 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Salome
well, since some of those signs are absolutely revolting it is sort of a big deal

at least if I was president of the US or the PM of England and people would say stuff like that about me because they vehemently disagree with what I think is right, I wouldn't be too blasé about this
Some of these people absolutely nauseate *and* scare me. I am on record as calling some of these groups "left wing Ku Klux Klans". At the very least......I dislike them as much as I do the Klan. They are hate groups. Some peace activists complain about having nightmares that these people could get in, shoot the President, and start all sorts of that way. They suck big time.
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