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Old 09-16-2003, 03:16 PM   #46
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It was already decided that the punch card systems were obsolete and would be replaced by March 2004.
The Secretary of State decertified the punch card ballots for replacement in 2006. This was following the Florida "debacle" (the results were still the same after countless hours of ballot analysis.

A separate lawsuit (perhaps by the ACLU in 2001) accelerated the date to 2004.

It is still disputed that the new technology creates more accurate voting results.

Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
If the study results are true
On what basis would you entertain the notion that the "study" results are true? How could such a "study" be valid?
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:31 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The Secretary of State decertified the punch card ballots for replacement in 2006. This was following the Florida "debacle" (the results were still the same after countless hours of ballot analysis.

A separate lawsuit (perhaps by the ACLU in 2001) accelerated the date to 2004.

It is still disputed that the new technology creates more accurate voting results.
I don't understand why it's okay to keep using a technology that has been found to be so unreliable that it is slated to be phased out. If it's not going to be okay in 2004 (or 2006) why is it okay now?

Quote:
On what basis would you entertain the notion that the "study" results are true? How could such a "study" be valid?
I don't know. Nor do you know that the study is invalid and not to be trusted. Neither one of us has seen it. I'm going to assume, however, that the ACLU would not introduce into their arguments some crazy far-out study that has absolutely no validity.

I don't know the study parameters. Perhaps it had to do with the fact that people of color have a disproportionate amount of non-English speaking voters. Perhaps the punch card ballots were not intuitive to those voters.

NB, as a Mexican-American I am certainly not trying to insinuate that minority voters are too dumb to understand punch card ballots. But because I have not seen it, I also cannot dispute or reject out of hand a study that concluded that, for whatever reason, punch card ballots caused difficulties for more minority than white voters.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:43 PM   #48
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
I don't understand why it's okay to keep using a technology that has been found to be so unreliable that it is slated to be phased out. If it's not going to be okay in 2004 (or 2006) why is it okay now?
Is it really so unreliable? Or is it a political reaction to Florida? And it is still disputed that it is being replaced with a more reliable system.

Also, abstentee ballots still use punchcards.


Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
I don't know. Nor do you know that the study is invalid and not to be trusted. Neither one of us has seen it. I'm going to assume, however, that the ACLU would not introduce into their arguments some crazy far-out study that has absolutely no validity.
You are a very trusting individual. Courtrooms are filled with junk science and "experts" used to further a position. Throw everything and see what sticks.
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Old 09-16-2003, 03:56 PM   #49
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is it really so unreliable? Or is it a political reaction to Florida? And it is still disputed that it is being replaced with a more reliable system.

Also, abstentee ballots still use punchcards.
It may be a political reaction to the Florida debacle. However I'm not sure if it's wise to mention Florida in a discussion about the reliability of those ballots. It wasn't exactly their shining moment. But good point on the absentee ballots.

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You are a very trusting individual. Courtrooms are filled with junk science and "experts" used to further a position. Throw everything and see what sticks.
I'm sure you're right. Maybe I'm holding the ACLU to moral standards that are too high. Maybe you're jaded from your experiences in the legal profession. That isn't to say that this study has merit or not. We'd have to see the study to know for sure, wouldn't we?
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Old 09-23-2003, 12:20 PM   #50
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11 Judge Panel of the US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the decision of the 3 judge panel. The recall will be held as planned.


It appears the ACLU was unable to support their claims with evidence.

From the L.A. Times

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A study by a political science professor at UC Berkeley that was one of the chief pieces of evidence in the case was insufficient, Kozinski said. The study, he noted, had not looked at whether the errors of punch-card machines could be corrected with a hand recount. That shortcoming was virtually fatal to the ACLU's case, he told Tribe.
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Old 09-23-2003, 09:33 PM   #51
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so do we get a few kind words for the nortorious ninth circuit?
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Old 10-01-2003, 11:18 AM   #52
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Democrats Planning for Litigation

Avoiding another Florida-style "fiasco" or creating one??

From the Sacramento Bee

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Setting the stage for a post-election legal challenge to the recall vote, Democrats are set to launch a national fund-raising campaign today to help pay for any legal action needed if Tuesday's election on Gov. Gray Davis' future is close.


Seeking to avoid what they called "another Florida-style fiasco," the state party and a national Democratic group called Democrats for America's Future said they hope to raise $100,000 to place poll watchers around the state Tuesday and to help with post-election legal challenges that may come up.
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