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Old 04-16-2002, 10:23 AM   #121
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Originally posted by gabrielvox:
[BI don't believe in Christ as God, but that in no way diminishes my belief and faith in Jesus as our redeeming saviour, God's Son, and the rightful heir to God's throne, upon which the bible promises Jesus will rule as king.
[/B]
Listen, you can't just take part of what Christ says and then throw the rest out with the bathwater. Either you believe that Christ is everything he said he is, or you believe him to be lying. Simple as that.
Christ said the following:
"I and the father are one" - you say that he's not claiming to be God here. Then what the heck is he claiming? That he and the Father are exactly like? Then why didn't he say "I and the Father are exactly alike"? or, do you think he was saying they stand united? If so, why didn't he say "I and the Father stand united"? The Jews at the time clearly knew what he was saying, because in John 10:33, they said "You, being a Man, make Yourself God". If that is not what Christ meant, as God's son, wouldn't he have said "No, do not put those words in my mouth. I did not say I am God"? I am not God, and I want God and God alone to be glorified, so if someone were to say to me "You call yourself God", I would definitely want to set the record straight. If Jesus were not God, don't you think he would want to "set the record straight"? Well, he had the opportunity, and he didn't deny it. You say that he in effect said "hey, you said it not me". But that's not correct. He didn't say that, not once. When Pilate asked him if he were the King Of The Jews, Christ did indeed say "you have said it", but he never said the "not me" part. I think that is a VERY important distinction.
But that's not the only time Jesus claimed to be God.
In John 8:56-59, Christ called himself the "I AM", which was a very holy name for God. Jews were forbidden to even say that! Here's verse 58:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"
As well as Christ's own words, in many other places in the bible, others say that Christ is God. In fact, in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God!" If Christ did not consider himself to be God, would he have not said "Whoa, hold on a minute, I'm the Savior, but I'm not God"? Certainly he would have said something to that effect. But he didn't.
Also, you are incorrect when you say that John 1:1 meanss "and the word was A god" instead of "the word was God". If that is the accurate translation, why are the Jehovah's Witnesses just about the only people who translate it that way, and why did the JW translation only come about almost 2000 years after it was originally written?
You said that Christ always referred to God ad his Father, his creator,his Superior. Well, he wasn't ALWAYS referring to God as these things, but in two instance you're right, Christ did indeed refer to God as his Father and his superior. But he never did refer to God as his creator. It's just not in there. In fact, John says that "by him (Christ) all things were created that were created". That right there says that Christ was the one doing the creation.
One verse you would quote in defense of your argument is John 14:28. "If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." You wonder how Jesus can be God if God is greater than He. An explanation of this begins with a look at Paul's teaching in Philippians 2:5-8. Paul said:

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Jesus chose to set aside some of His attributes to become the God-man. He chose to subordinate Himself--not only to God the Father but also to man. This is not a commentary on His nature, which of course no one can change, but on His purpose--His office--while on earth. Just as no one could conclude that Jesus became less than man because He chose to become man's servant (see Mark 10:45), so no one should conclude that Jesus was less than God because He subjected Himself to the Father while on earth. John 14:28 does not disprove Jesus' claim to be God. Rather, it shows His willing submission to His Father during His 33 years among men.
While Christ himself never said anything at all about being a creation, you claim that God created Christ. One of Paul's writings that you might try to use to support this is Colossians 1:15.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Everybody knows what a firstborn is. He's the baby born first--the one with the birthrights. Well, sometimes that's what it means. But like many words, it can also mean something else. It can also denote rank, position, or privilege. Look for instance at Paul's statement just three verses later: "He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead." Obviously, the word firstborn takes on a figurative meaning here. Likewise, in Hebrews 12:23 it is used to speak of something far different from the birth of the first child in a family. But that would still leave us with only the possibility--not the certainty--that the word firstborn means superiority. If all else were equal, either interpretation would be acceptable. But there are other considerations. Notably, there are two verses in the same chapter of Colossians that present a powerful commentary. In Colossians 1:16 and 17, Paul said in reference to Jesus, "All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Here Paul drew a clear line of demarcation between the created and the Creator. Jesus is clearly different from the creation because He was involved in the creation. The Creator cannot create Himself.



[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]
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Old 04-16-2002, 10:58 AM   #122
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80s you obviously have some serious issues with members of certain religions. Thankfully, I've learned that this is not the way to accurate knowledge so I won't go into any specifics with you. But some of the things you answered to weren't even raised by me, perhaps you confused these with other's posts.

I will comment tho, that in all your 'why didnt he say this...' comments, you overlook that he didn't say it with those English words, because he wasn't saying it in English! Since then the Bible has been translated countless times, and while some are closer than other, no translation is going to be perfect. You are also forgetting that while 'all scripture is inspired by God' (big disctinction, inspired vs directly penned), imperfect men wrote it, and again, imperfect men in turn interpreted it.

Recall just why the Jews lost favor with God, according to the Bible. Their religion had become so entrenched in dogmatic debate and intricate legalistic belief, that they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah when he arrived! They spent endless days arguing and reintepreting the Law, to the point where they forgot what it was all for. When Jesus spoke to them, he spoke in alot of parables, because he was challenging their very narrow minded and simplistic interpretations. Why did the Jew's have him killed? First they tried to convince Pilate that Jesus was a seditionist bent on overthrowing Rome. When it became clear to Pilate that this wasnt true, interestingly by his clearly understanding the indirect way Jesus answered his questions, unlike those knuckleheaded Pharisees, what did they do? Hauled him back up in front of Pilate saying that according to their law, he must die because he claimed to be God's Son. Not God, but his Son, which to them was blasphemy. As hard headed as they were, even they still could understand clearly the relationship between Father and Son and thus had him killed on the basis that he claimed to be God's Son. There is a lesson here for us too: we need to be careful we don't get so wrapped up in arguing about God's nature and his relationship with His Son that we forget the whole reason Christ came in the first place.

You ask how I can call myself a Christian? Because I believe what Jesus and the bible told me to believe. Jesus didn't tell me that the greatest commandment was to worship him as God, he told me the most important things were to love God (note not 'me') and to love my neighbour. I must also believe in the redeeming power of his sacrifice to be saved. I wonder how your dogmatic arguments will go down when were both standing at the gates: "hey Jesus, he didn't believe that <insert interpretation here>, look at all the things I did in your name and how well I believed...like what gives, what the heck is HE doing here?"...I already know what his response will be, and so do you.

While I don't believe the same as you, I'm glad that your faith is so strong and rooted. May it bode you well in the final judgement if the evaluation is conducted based on specifics of what we believed.

Now, as AM has noted, we have hogged the airspace here discussing christian beliefs, and this was a discussion on faiths other than Christian...

Gabriel

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[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 04-16-2002).]

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Old 04-17-2002, 12:21 AM   #123
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Old 04-17-2002, 01:30 AM   #124
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Originally posted by HeartlandGirl:
...
Thanks for adding something! Thought you bowed out...


Regarding Satanism, its my understanding that, as RavenStarr has described, "Satanism" doesn't have anything to do with Lucifer outside of his likeness being a symbol of sorts for the way they go about life. But Satanists don't actually believe in Satan, God, Heaven, or Hell.

Conversely, there are "Devil Worshipers" who do believe in Satan and do worship him. The two are often confused, which is understandable. But they aren't the same thing. Just thought I'd clarify some of that; and if I'm wrong someone can jump in and enlighten me.
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Old 04-17-2002, 04:17 AM   #125
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Originally posted by MSU2mike:
Regarding Satanism, its my understanding that, as RavenStarr has described, "Satanism" doesn't have anything to do with Lucifer outside of his likeness being a symbol of sorts for the way they go about life.
thatīs one of the things Iīve learned from this thread. Something I didnīt know. Thanks, RavenStar

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Old 04-17-2002, 11:44 AM   #126
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I'm Christian, but I believe there are multiple roads to salvation. I think we all believe in the same God, and we're all essentially trying to find our way to him, albeit in different ways.

I'm perfectly content with my views, and have no desire to change them.
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Old 04-17-2002, 12:47 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox:
80s you obviously have some serious issues with members of certain religions. Thankfully, I've learned that this is not the way to accurate knowledge so I won't go into any specifics with you. But some of the things you answered to weren't even raised by me, perhaps you confused these with other's posts.

I will comment tho, that in all your 'why didnt he say this...' comments, you overlook that he didn't say it with those English words, because he wasn't saying it in English! Since then the Bible has been translated countless times, and while some are closer than other, no translation is going to be perfect. You are also forgetting that while 'all scripture is inspired by God' (big disctinction, inspired vs directly penned), imperfect men wrote it, and again, imperfect men in turn interpreted it.

Recall just why the Jews lost favor with God, according to the Bible. Their religion had become so entrenched in dogmatic debate and intricate legalistic belief, that they failed to recognize Jesus as the Messiah when he arrived! They spent endless days arguing and reintepreting the Law, to the point where they forgot what it was all for. When Jesus spoke to them, he spoke in alot of parables, because he was challenging their very narrow minded and simplistic interpretations. Why did the Jew's have him killed? First they tried to convince Pilate that Jesus was a seditionist bent on overthrowing Rome. When it became clear to Pilate that this wasnt true, interestingly by his clearly understanding the indirect way Jesus answered his questions, unlike those knuckleheaded Pharisees, what did they do? Hauled him back up in front of Pilate saying that according to their law, he must die because he claimed to be God's Son. Not God, but his Son, which to them was blasphemy. As hard headed as they were, even they still could understand clearly the relationship between Father and Son and thus had him killed on the basis that he claimed to be God's Son. There is a lesson here for us too: we need to be careful we don't get so wrapped up in arguing about God's nature and his relationship with His Son that we forget the whole reason Christ came in the first place.

You ask how I can call myself a Christian? Because I believe what Jesus and the bible told me to believe. Jesus didn't tell me that the greatest commandment was to worship him as God, he told me the most important things were to love God (note not 'me') and to love my neighbour. I must also believe in the redeeming power of his sacrifice to be saved. I wonder how your dogmatic arguments will go down when were both standing at the gates: "hey Jesus, he didn't believe that <insert interpretation here>, look at all the things I did in your name and how well I believed...like what gives, what the heck is HE doing here?"...I already know what his response will be, and so do you.

While I don't believe the same as you, I'm glad that your faith is so strong and rooted. May it bode you well in the final judgement if the evaluation is conducted based on specifics of what we believed.

Now, as AM has noted, we have hogged the airspace here discussing christian beliefs, and this was a discussion on faiths other than Christian...

Gabriel

very cool

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Old 04-17-2002, 04:51 PM   #128
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Originally posted by AM:
thatīs one of the things Iīve learned from this thread. Something I didnīt know. Thanks, RavenStar

your welcome



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Old 04-18-2002, 09:48 PM   #129
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martha could you pass an email my way?


arun@interference.com
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Old 04-19-2002, 09:08 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
very cool

Hey, thanks Arun!



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Old 04-20-2002, 08:48 PM   #131
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I think the only thing that we can take from this is that anyone who believes in nothing except themselves is not living as full a life as someone who has a belief in something or someone else... no matter what it is.

That is simply a statement of fact and cannot be disagreed with. Anyone who does disagree is, as a person, not worth knowing in the long run.
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Old 04-21-2002, 05:53 PM   #132
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bullet,
what makes you think that?

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Old 04-30-2002, 02:48 AM   #133
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I'm a Muslim..... I believe in One God (Allah).... The same as Christianity and Judaism... However, we believe that there was a final Prophet... His name was Mohammed and he brought the Koran as a final word of Allah...
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Old 04-30-2002, 12:01 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna:
I'm a Muslim..... I believe in One God (Allah).... The same as Christianity and Judaism... However, we believe that there was a final Prophet... His name was Mohammed and he brought the Koran as a final word of Allah...
hm, but as far as I know the Qur'an talks about the "Day of God" and the "Great Announcement," when "God" will come down "overshadowed with clouds."

Doesnīt that mean that the will be another prophet after Mohammed?

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Old 05-01-2002, 03:54 AM   #135
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AM, well the shias believe that the last Imam, Imam Mehdi Akerzaman (AS) will re- appear and re-spread the message of Islam... This being, because so many people would have butchered the name of Islam and chaos would only be prevalent within this world. The imam will help bring peace.
WE don't think that there will be another Prophet.
Peace out
Amna
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