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Old 04-10-2002, 08:13 AM   #61
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Originally posted by AM:
but there is only one God, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Bahaullh etc. are his messengers. No human being can claim to be God! They can be prophets send by God but never be God!!!

AM this is a western view.


Hinduism believes in the existence of avatars (as do other eastern relgions). And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........

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Old 04-10-2002, 10:04 AM   #62
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Originally posted by HeartlandGirl:
First, let me say that I am not arguing that Guth's theory proves that God doesn't exist. Ergo, everything else you said is really not relevant to what I wrote. In your first message, you said that there was no scientific evidence that the universe was created without some creative force behind it. Guth's theory, which is based on evidence, does argue that the universe could have come from nothing, which was my original point. Perhaps God created that nothing. I don't know, and as someone else said, it is a difficult point to prove or disprove, which was not my goal. I simply wanted to refute the statement that their had to be a creative force behind the universe.
But my original statement, which you quoted, was that there was no EVIDENCE that it happened by pure happenstance, without any creative force behind it. in fact, you actually said "yes there is". But then you wnet on to tell me about something that adds up to nothing more than a theory. I knew there were theories. We had already been discussing theories.
You said that Guth said the evidence shows that it COULD have come from nothing. That's one man's opinion. That's not hard evidence. He calims it as evidence but the fact that he used the word "could have" is in direct opposition to the word "evidence". In order to be scientific evidence, mustn't something be "observed"? When did someone observe a creation of something like this earth out of pure happenstance, no creative force behind it? Never.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-10-2002).]
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:10 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........
That He is God? Yes it does indeed.
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:18 AM   #64
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Originally posted by Arun V:
And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........

no it doesnt. Lets face it, Jesus lived more than 2000 years ago and of course he need to explain his mission to the people of those days. If hes just said, Im the messanger of God, theyd not believed him. He needed to be "more" than that to convince them.

But modern people like us understand more than the people 2000 years ago. We know that there is only one God and no human being can be God. When Jesus says Im the son of God, he did that to emphazise his mission.

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Old 04-10-2002, 10:25 AM   #65
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no it doesnt. Lets face it, Jesus lived more than 2000 years ago and of course he need to explain his mission to the people of those days. If hes just said, Im the messanger of God, theyd not believed him. He needed to be "more" than that to convince them.

But modern people like us understand more than the people 2000 years ago. We know that there is only one God and no human being can be God. When Jesus says Im the son of God, he did that to emphazise his mission.

you are dodging the point...he says " I and my father are one...dont' make me bust out my bible on your ass (j/k). That indicates in a sense that jesus is god. And in christianity god is viewed as one in three father SON, and holy spirit. So if the son is part of the trinity...and jesus says I and my father am one.....
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:52 AM   #66
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It is my understanding that Jesus was the Word made flesh--i.e., a Godman, a human incarnate of God. It doesn't get any closer to being God than that.

Where I differ with the Christian church is in their belief that Jesus was the only one, and I believe that God is bigger than that, that God so loves Its creation that It manifests itself to people of all cultures, throughout history, past present & future, with different faces, in many different ways. Or, as HeartlandGirl said, "I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same God, just in different ways, and we often get bogged down by the details."
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:09 AM   #67
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everyone has different lives is it that inconcievable that we'd experience god in different ways? One size fits all is for hats and t shirts..not god
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:11 AM   #68
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Originally posted by Arun V:
everyone has different lives is it that inconcievable that we'd experience god in different ways? One size fits all is for hats and t shirts..not god
Makes sense to me.
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:42 AM   #69
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Where I differ with the Christian church is in their belief that Jesus was the only one, and I believe that God is bigger than that, that God so loves Its creation that It manifests itself to people of all cultures, throughout history, past present & future, with different faces, in many different ways. Or, as HeartlandGirl said, "I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same God, just in different ways, and we often get bogged down by the details."
thats what Ive been trying to say. Thats what we Bahais believe. We believe that God sends messengers over and over again. Each messenger at a certain time to tell us about God.


Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that hes the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, its just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.



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Old 04-10-2002, 11:51 AM   #70
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Originally posted by AM:
thats what Ive been trying to say. Thats what we Bahais believe. We believe that God sends messengers over and over again. Each messenger at a certain time to tell us about God.


Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that hes the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, its just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.

that's what IIIIII tried to say earlier..jesus not only says he's the SON of god...but that he is god.

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Old 04-10-2002, 12:05 PM   #71
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Interesting thread. Nice to see everyone being civil about a topic that can get heated.
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Old 04-10-2002, 12:29 PM   #72
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one of the few civil threas in FYM history
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Old 04-10-2002, 12:58 PM   #73
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Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that hes the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, its just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.
Just a point of clarification, and hopefully not to digress this thread into a debate:

That may BE the Bahai, Hindu, and generally universalist view of Christ and His "stories," but those of us who are Messianic Christians DO believe in one Triune God - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, of which Jesus is The Son, based on His fulfillment of prophecy and events such as His virgin birth, the transfiguration, and the resurrection of His body after His cruciifxion and death. We do not consider those to be metaphorical. Thanks.

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Old 04-10-2002, 01:02 PM   #74
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Originally posted by Arun V:

that's what IIIIII tried to say earlier..jesus not only says he's the SON of god...but that he is god.

now Im confused ... did you read my post?? I said hes NOT God!



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Old 04-10-2002, 01:28 PM   #75
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Originally posted by melon:
An honest inquiry...

Isn't Satanism little more than a more intricate atheism? Isn't it more of a rejection of the existence of God and Christian religion than it is about worshipping Satan?
Melon
yup
Whether you believe in the actual being of satan, you obviously believe in and follow the lifestyle/ethics that those of us who believe in satan say that he espouses. So, even if you are not "believing in or worshipping satan", patterning your life after those nine satanic staements is, in effect, following in the path that satan (if he exists) would pave. Now, take that a step further and answer this question: If you are wrong and satan does exist, and you follow his ways, won't you reap the same consequences as if you had actually "worshipped" him? To tell you the truth, that thought would scare the hell out of me.

Now, I'd like to ask you another question: What is the value of living your live in a way that only considers your own needs and desires? You may gain money, power, fame, but when you die, what do you have to show for it? Even if there is no everlife, if you've spent your life only treating yourself right, you've done no one else any good. If there is no everlife, shouldn't we do as much as we can to help those in need, and make this life a little more enjoyable for everyone, not just ourselves? Can you imagine what a sickening world this would be if everyone followed the nine satanic "commandments"?
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