80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2000
- Messages
- 4,970
Listen, you can't just take part of what Christ says and then throw the rest out with the bathwater. Either you believe that Christ is everything he said he is, or you believe him to be lying. Simple as that.
Christ said the following:
"I and the father are one" - you say that he's not claiming to be God here. Then what the heck is he claiming? That he and the Father are exactly like? Then why didn't he say "I and the Father are exactly alike"? or, do you think he was saying they stand united? If so, why didn't he say "I and the Father stand united"? The Jews at the time clearly knew what he was saying, because in John 10:33, they said "You, being a Man, make Yourself God". If that is not what Christ meant, as God's son, wouldn't he have said "No, do not put those words in my mouth. I did not say I am God"? I am not God, and I want God and God alone to be glorified, so if someone were to say to me "You call yourself God", I would definitely want to set the record straight. If Jesus were not God, don't you think he would want to "set the record straight"? Well, he had the opportunity, and he didn't deny it. You say that he in effect said "hey, you said it not me". But that's not correct. He didn't say that, not once. When Pilate asked him if he were the King Of The Jews, Christ did indeed say "you have said it", but he never said the "not me" part. I think that is a VERY important distinction.
But that's not the only time Jesus claimed to be God.
In John 8:56-59, Christ called himself the "I AM", which was a very holy name for God. Jews were forbidden to even say that! Here's verse 58:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"
As well as Christ's own words, in many other places in the bible, others say that Christ is God. In fact, in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God!" If Christ did not consider himself to be God, would he have not said "Whoa, hold on a minute, I'm the Savior, but I'm not God"? Certainly he would have said something to that effect. But he didn't.
Also, you are incorrect when you say that John 1:1 meanss "and the word was A god" instead of "the word was God". If that is the accurate translation, why are the Jehovah's Witnesses just about the only people who translate it that way, and why did the JW translation only come about almost 2000 years after it was originally written?
You said that Christ always referred to God ad his Father, his creator,his Superior. Well, he wasn't ALWAYS referring to God as these things, but in two instance you're right, Christ did indeed refer to God as his Father and his superior. But he never did refer to God as his creator. It's just not in there. In fact, John says that "by him (Christ) all things were created that were created". That right there says that Christ was the one doing the creation.
One verse you would quote in defense of your argument is John 14:28. "If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, for My Father is greater than I." You wonder how Jesus can be God if God is greater than He. An explanation of this begins with a look at Paul's teaching in Philippians 2:5-8. Paul said:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."
Jesus chose to set aside some of His attributes to become the God-man. He chose to subordinate Himself--not only to God the Father but also to man. This is not a commentary on His nature, which of course no one can change, but on His purpose--His office--while on earth. Just as no one could conclude that Jesus became less than man because He chose to become man's servant (see Mark 10:45), so no one should conclude that Jesus was less than God because He subjected Himself to the Father while on earth. John 14:28 does not disprove Jesus' claim to be God. Rather, it shows His willing submission to His Father during His 33 years among men.
While Christ himself never said anything at all about being a creation, you claim that God created Christ. One of Paul's writings that you might try to use to support this is Colossians 1:15.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Everybody knows what a firstborn is. He's the baby born first--the one with the birthrights. Well, sometimes that's what it means. But like many words, it can also mean something else. It can also denote rank, position, or privilege. Look for instance at Paul's statement just three verses later: "He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead." Obviously, the word firstborn takes on a figurative meaning here. Likewise, in Hebrews 12:23 it is used to speak of something far different from the birth of the first child in a family. But that would still leave us with only the possibility--not the certainty--that the word firstborn means superiority. If all else were equal, either interpretation would be acceptable. But there are other considerations. Notably, there are two verses in the same chapter of Colossians that present a powerful commentary. In Colossians 1:16 and 17, Paul said in reference to Jesus, "All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Here Paul drew a clear line of demarcation between the created and the Creator. Jesus is clearly different from the creation because He was involved in the creation. The Creator cannot create Himself.
[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-16-2002).]
