Other religions

[V Nura]

Originally posted by AM:
but there is only one God, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Baha?u?ll?h etc. are his messengers. No human being can claim to be God! They can be prophets send by God but never be God!!!

AM this is a western view.


Hinduism believes in the existence of avatars (as do other eastern relgions). And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by HeartlandGirl:
First, let me say that I am not arguing that Guth's theory proves that God doesn't exist. Ergo, everything else you said is really not relevant to what I wrote. In your first message, you said that there was no scientific evidence that the universe was created without some creative force behind it. Guth's theory, which is based on evidence, does argue that the universe could have come from nothing, which was my original point. Perhaps God created that nothing. I don't know, and as someone else said, it is a difficult point to prove or disprove, which was not my goal. I simply wanted to refute the statement that their had to be a creative force behind the universe.

But my original statement, which you quoted, was that there was no EVIDENCE that it happened by pure happenstance, without any creative force behind it. in fact, you actually said "yes there is". But then you wnet on to tell me about something that adds up to nothing more than a theory. I knew there were theories. We had already been discussing theories.
You said that Guth said the evidence shows that it COULD have come from nothing. That's one man's opinion. That's not hard evidence. He calims it as evidence but the fact that he used the word "could have" is in direct opposition to the word "evidence". In order to be scientific evidence, mustn't something be "observed"? When did someone observe a creation of something like this earth out of pure happenstance, no creative force behind it? Never.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-10-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Arun V:
And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........

That He is God? Yes it does indeed.

 

[AM]

Originally posted by Arun V:
And even jesus himself says " I and my father am one". So if he and his father are one?...doesn't that imply..........

no it doesn?t. Let?s face it, Jesus lived more than 2000 years ago and of course he need to explain his mission to the people of those days. If he?s just said, I?m the messanger of God, they?d not believed him. He needed to be "more" than that to convince them.

But modern people like us understand more than the people 2000 years ago. We know that there is only one God and no human being can be God. When Jesus says I?m the son of God, he did that to emphazise his mission.

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by AM:
no it doesn?t. Let?s face it, Jesus lived more than 2000 years ago and of course he need to explain his mission to the people of those days. If he?s just said, I?m the messanger of God, they?d not believed him. He needed to be "more" than that to convince them.

But modern people like us understand more than the people 2000 years ago. We know that there is only one God and no human being can be God. When Jesus says I?m the son of God, he did that to emphazise his mission.

you are dodging the point...he says " I and my father are one...dont' make me bust out my bible on your ass (j/k). That indicates in a sense that jesus is god. And in christianity god is viewed as one in three father SON, and holy spirit. So if the son is part of the trinity...and jesus says I and my father am one.....

 

[joyfulgirl]

It is my understanding that Jesus was the Word made flesh--i.e., a Godman, a human incarnate of God. It doesn't get any closer to being God than that.

Where I differ with the Christian church is in their belief that Jesus was the only one, and I believe that God is bigger than that, that God so loves Its creation that It manifests itself to people of all cultures, throughout history, past present & future, with different faces, in many different ways. Or, as HeartlandGirl said, "I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same God, just in different ways, and we often get bogged down by the details."

 

[V Nura]

everyone has different lives is it that inconcievable that we'd experience god in different ways? One size fits all is for hats and t shirts..not god

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by Arun V:
everyone has different lives is it that inconcievable that we'd experience god in different ways? One size fits all is for hats and t shirts..not god

Makes sense to me.

 

[AM]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
Where I differ with the Christian church is in their belief that Jesus was the only one, and I believe that God is bigger than that, that God so loves Its creation that It manifests itself to people of all cultures, throughout history, past present & future, with different faces, in many different ways. Or, as HeartlandGirl said, "I think in the end, we're all worshipping the same God, just in different ways, and we often get bogged down by the details."

that?s what I?ve been trying to say. That?s what we Baha?i?s believe. We believe that God sends messengers over and over again. Each messenger at a certain time to tell us about God.


Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that he?s the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, it?s just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.



------------------
I'm a bass player. That's a "singer" question. Lord Adam Clayton

"The bass player's got it. The bass player's fucking got it." Bono, Boston 6-9-01

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by AM:
that?s what I?ve been trying to say. That?s what we Baha?i?s believe. We believe that God sends messengers over and over again. Each messenger at a certain time to tell us about God.


Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that he?s the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, it?s just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.

that's what IIIIII tried to say earlier..jesus not only says he's the SON of god...but that he is god.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Interesting thread. Nice to see everyone being civil about a topic that can get heated.

 

[V Nura]

one of the few civil threas in FYM history

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by AM:
Arun, I tried to explain this earlier. Yes, Jesus says that he?s the son of God, but as a lot of stories in the Bible, it?s just a metaphor. To show people his outstanding status amongst them.

Just a point of clarification, and hopefully not to digress this thread into a debate:

That may BE the Bahai, Hindu, and generally universalist view of Christ and His "stories," but those of us who are Messianic Christians DO believe in one Triune God - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, of which Jesus is The Son, based on His fulfillment of prophecy and events such as His virgin birth, the transfiguration, and the resurrection of His body after His cruciifxion and death. We do not consider those to be metaphorical. Thanks.

~U2Alabama

 

[AM]

Originally posted by Arun V:

that's what IIIIII tried to say earlier..jesus not only says he's the SON of god...but that he is god.

now I?m confused ... did you read my post?? I said he?s NOT God!



------------------
I'm a bass player. That's a "singer" question. Lord Adam Clayton

"The bass player's got it. The bass player's fucking got it." Bono, Boston 6-9-01

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by RavenStar:

Originally posted by melon:
An honest inquiry...

Isn't Satanism little more than a more intricate atheism? Isn't it more of a rejection of the existence of God and Christian religion than it is about worshipping Satan?
Melon

yup

Whether you believe in the actual being of satan, you obviously believe in and follow the lifestyle/ethics that those of us who believe in satan say that he espouses. So, even if you are not "believing in or worshipping satan", patterning your life after those nine satanic staements is, in effect, following in the path that satan (if he exists) would pave. Now, take that a step further and answer this question: If you are wrong and satan does exist, and you follow his ways, won't you reap the same consequences as if you had actually "worshipped" him? To tell you the truth, that thought would scare the hell out of me.

Now, I'd like to ask you another question: What is the value of living your live in a way that only considers your own needs and desires? You may gain money, power, fame, but when you die, what do you have to show for it? Even if there is no everlife, if you've spent your life only treating yourself right, you've done no one else any good. If there is no everlife, shouldn't we do as much as we can to help those in need, and make this life a little more enjoyable for everyone, not just ourselves? Can you imagine what a sickening world this would be if everyone followed the nine satanic "commandments"?

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by AM:
now I?m confused ... did you read my post?? I said he?s NOT God!

you can say what you want...
but HE says it himself

*is gonna bust out his bible

 

[RavenStar]

Originally posted by foray:
Questions for Ravenstar

very sincerely:

1stly, do those 9 Satanic principles come with the exclamation mark? (I'm not trying to be funny)

2ndly, do you know exactly why it is called Satanism if it has nothing to do with Satan?

Finally, I am just curious. What do Satanists do when they are confronted by selfish people? Do they then adopt Statement V and exercise vengeance on the person? But how is that fair, if the selfish person was exercising Statement I & VIII?

Thanks!

foray

1. yes they do!
2. we view satan as a symbol for the natural side of human nature. we model ourselves after satan and that is why it is called Satanism
3. good question. I would be hypocritical to act vengence on them. As long as people indulge themselves in a way that doesn't harm certain people it would be pointless to act vengence


------------------
He who stands atop the highest mountain can see the farthest

 

[RavenStar]

80's
seeing other people happy makes me happy. So I like to help people make themselves happy. I do help people in need. I can imagine the world if everyone was a Satanist, it's not sickening though.


------------------
He who stands atop the highest mountain can see the farthest

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by RavenStar:
80's
seeing other people happy makes me happy. So I like to help people make themselves happy. I do help people in need. I can imagine the world if everyone was a Satanist, it's not sickening though.

Well, are you really a satanist, then? It seems to me that if you help other people, you are putting their needs ahead of your own.

 

[joyfulgirl]

One can do both--fulfill one's own needs and still do nice things for other people. I believe in charitable deeds, and at the same time I think it's often wise to help oneself first...a simple analogy might be like on airplanes when they advise parents to give themselves oxygen first before administering to their children. If you take care of your own needs first, you will be better able to help others. Which is not to say that I always put myself first, but I think different situations call for different responses, and that putting others first isn't always the best thing. I think when it is genuinely inspired, it is the right thing in that moment. But if you put others first out of a sense of duty or responsibility, rather than the joy of doing so, it is not necessarily always the wise and healthy thing to do. Does that make sense?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
One can do both--fulfill one's own needs and still do nice things for other people. I believe in charitable deeds, and at the same time I think it's often wise to help oneself first...a simple analogy might be like on airplanes when they advise parents to give themselves oxygen first before administering to their children. If you take care of your own needs first, you will be better able to help others. Which is not to say that I always put myself first, but I think different situations call for different responses, and that putting others first isn't always the best thing. I think when it is genuinely inspired, it is the right thing in that moment. But if you put others first out of a sense of duty or responsibility, rather than the joy of doing so, it is not necessarily always the wise and healthy thing to do. Does that make sense?

Definitely, that makes sense. And I definitely understand the concept of putting your oxygen mask on before your child's. And you're right, it is about the joy of doing for others, not about obligation or responsibility. I love helping others.
However, the nine satanic points point to a life lived for self preservation. So, do satanists only help others when it benefits themselves, or only after first checking to make sure their needs are met, also? If that is the case, and it seems that is indeed what the nine satanic points espouse, then consider this dilemma: if a person does something truly selfless, like pushing a child out of the way of an ongoing car, tehreby placing him/herself at risk of death, can that person really look deep inside and still call himself a true satanist? If satanism is a religion of self-preservation and self-gratification, it appears to me that there is no room for people who are consistently willing to commit self-sacrificing or selfless behaviors.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 04-10-2002).]

 

[joyfulgirl]

I don't know, 80s, I don't think I really understand Satanism and, like most religions, spiritual paths and philosophies, it's probably not something we're going to understand from a few sentences. But I am certainly fascinated by the idea, as others here seem to be, in part because I've never actually known someone who practices it, and also because I sense it is very different than the image most of us have of Satan from our traditional Judeo-Christian teachings. In my own esoteric path, Satan (or Kal) is viewed as a sacred part of God's creation, serving soul by acting as an obstacle on the path to enlightenment, which strengthens soul's resolve. So I think what Satan means varies quite a bit within various spiritual teachings. Anyway, I await further input from Raven because it's quite interesting!

 

[RavenStar]

80's
I would never harm a child. Since I value the carnal side of human nature, harming children is out of the question(except for extreme cases)because chilren are the best examples of this. Animals too. I would only kill an animal if attacked or for food. Helping yourselve makes it easier to help others. And since my life directly affects my life, helping myself usually comes first.


------------------
He who stands atop the highest mountain can see the farthest

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

you know good and evil HAVE to exist together. if one destroyed the other, it would cease to exist itself.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by RavenStar:
80's
I would never harm a child. Since I value the carnal side of human nature, harming children is out of the question(except for extreme cases)because chilren are the best examples of this. Animals too. I would only kill an animal if attacked or for food. Helping yourselve makes it easier to help others. And since my life directly affects my life, helping myself usually comes first.

No, I don't imagine you would harm a child (although to be honest, I do wonder what "except in extreme cases" means). I was just using saving a child's life as a case of a selfless act that puts others' needs above your own. Of course, there are many other situations I could use as an example of that concept.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by CannibalisticArtist:
you know good and evil HAVE to exist together. if one destroyed the other, it would cease to exist itself.

I don't know that. I don't believe it.
Evil did not always exist. Satan created evil. But don't be fooled - evil won't be allowed to roam free forever. Satan is not some "evil god". Satan is a created being, and is subject to the awesome power of the Almighty Lord. One day, the devil will be locked up forever.

 

[martha]

I'm not really replying, but letting those who are interested know that I'm still here and listening. I like the way the discussion about Jesus as God is progressing. I'll chime in when I have something more to add.

------------------


She's a little lightheaded, so check on her in a few minutes -- my podiatrist, about me (again), 2-11-02

 

[foray]

Something someone (perhaps joyfulgirl) said about God being big enough to accommodate all beliefs in the world, stood out for me. To me, Jesus allowed himself to be tortured in the most horrible way (you'd be sick if you read the medical view on what happens to his body during crucifixion; also, I'm not advocating fixation on the gruesome aspects of it). He did it so that we may have life and because God the father loves his children.

God sending down his only son to die for us -- how much bigger do we want God to go? It's more than enough 'big-ness' for me.


foray

 

[AM]

Ok, I?m having some problems making myself understood (I guess you noticed that English is not my native language) so I copied & pasted this article. Sorry it?s a bit long, but great. From www.bahai.org

The Bah?'? belief in one God means that the universe and all creatures and forces within it have been created by a single supernatural Being. This Being, Whom we call God, has absolute control over His creation (omnipotence) as well as perfect and complete knowledge of it (omniscience). Although we may have different concepts of God's nature, although we may pray to Him in different languages and call Him by different names--Allah or Yahweh, God or Brahma--nevertheless, we are speaking about the same unique Being.

Extolling God's act of creation, Bah?'u'll?h said:


All-praise to the unity of God, and all-honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it.2
Bah?'u'll?h taught that God is too great and too subtle a Being for the finite human mind ever to understand Him adequately or to construct an accurate image of Him:


How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God--a unity which is exalted above all limitations, that transcendeth the comprehension of all created things.... How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!3
According to Bah?'? teachings, God is so far beyond His creation that, throughout all eternity, human beings will never be able to formulate any clear image of Him or attain to anything but the most remote appreciation of His superior nature. Even if we say that God is the All-Powerful, the All-Loving, the Infinitely Just, such terms are derived from a very limited human experience of power, love, or justice. Indeed, our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of those attributes or qualities perceptible to us:


Know that there are two kinds of knowledge: the knowledge of the essence of a thing and the knowledge of its qualities. The essence of a thing is known through its qualities; otherwise, it is unknown and hidden.
As our knowledge of things, even of created and limited things, is knowledge of their qualities and not of their essence, how is it possible to comprehend in its essence the Divine Reality, which is unlimited? ... Knowing God, therefore, means the comprehension and the knowledge of His attributes, and not of His Reality. This knowledge of the attributes is also proportioned to the capacity and power of man; it is not absolute.4

Thus for human beings the knowledge of God means the knowledge of the attributes and qualities of God, not a direct knowledge of His essence. But how are we to attain the knowledge of the attributes of God? Bah?'u'll?h wrote that everything in creation is God's handiwork and therefore reflects something of His attributes. For example, even in the intimate structure of a rock or a crystal can be seen the order of God's creation. However, the more refined the object, the more completely is it capable of reflecting God's attributes. Since the Messenger of God or Manifestation of God is the highest form of creation known to us, the Manifestation affords the most complete knowledge of God available to us:


Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light.... To a supreme degree is this true of man.... For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpasssed.... And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of their grace.5
Although a rock or a tree reveals something of the subtlety of its Creator, only a conscious being such as man can dramatize God's attributes in his life and actions. Since the Manifestations are already in a perfected state, it is in their lives that the deeper meaning of God's attributes can be most perfectly understood. God is not limited by a physical body, and so we cannot see Him directly or observe His personality. Hence our knowledge of the Manifestation is, in fact, the closest we can come to the knowledge of God.


Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.... He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His mission than the proof of His Own Person.6
And in another similar passage:


The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being [God] hath ever been, and will continue to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self.7
Of course, only those who live during the time of a Manifestation have the opportunity of observing Him directly. It is for this reason, Bah?'u'll?h explained, that the essential connection between the individual and God is maintained through the writings and words of each Manifestation. For Bah?'?s, the word of the Manifestation is the Word of God, and it is to this Word that the individual can turn in his or her daily life in order to grow closer to God and to acquire a deeper knowledge of Him. The written Word of God is the instrument that creates a consciousness of God's presence in one's daily life:


Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth.... He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God.8
It is for this reason that the discipline of daily prayer, meditation, and study of the holy writings constitutes an important part of the individual spiritual practice of Bah?'?s. They feel that this discipline is one of the most important ways of growing closer to their Creator.

To summarize: the Bah?'? view of God is that His essence is eternally transcendent, but that His attributes and qualities are completely immanent in the Manifestations.9 Since our knowledge of anything is limited to our knowledge of the perceptible attributes of that thing, knowledge of the Manifestations is (for ordinary humans) equivalent to knowledge of God.10 In practical terms, this knowledge is gained through study, prayer, meditation, and practical application based on the revealed Word of God (i.e., the sacred scriptures of the Manifestations).

 

[joyfulgirl]

Originally posted by foray:
Something someone (perhaps joyfulgirl) said about God being big enough to accommodate all beliefs in the world, stood out for me. To me, Jesus allowed himself to be tortured in the most horrible way (you'd be sick if you read the medical view on what happens to his body during crucifixion; also, I'm not advocating fixation on the gruesome aspects of it). He did it so that we may have life and because God the father loves his children.

God sending down his only son to die for us -- how much bigger do we want God to go? It's more than enough 'big-ness' for me.


foray

Big enough to express Itself to those who aren't Christian, to those who will never hear about Christianity, to those whose faiths incorporate deep love for the Divine through other prophets/messengers/sons of God. I never experienced anything remotely of a Divine nature through prayer within the Christian church that I grew up in. I gave it my best--I truly did--but it simply wasn't my calling. It was empty for me. I wasn't filled with the love and joy and inspiration that I needed to show me it was the way for me (nor did I see it in others in my church). I prayed with unusual fervor beginning as a small child and throughout my teen years and I never experienced anything that indicated this was right for me. But later when I found my path, I experienced the Divine everywhere and it changed me forever. Miracle after miracle. And it felt like God was saying, "OK, Christianity didn't work for you? How about this then? I'll work with you this way."

And you must remember that the Bible is not my source of truth, so to use the crucifixion as an example for me just doesn't really work any more than it would for you if I began pointing to my own spiritual teachings as evidence of God's love for me. I'm not saying that I don't believe in the crucifixion but that other teachings have equally profound stories that I connect with just as you connect with the story of Jesus.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 04-11-2002).]