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Old 07-22-2002, 05:35 PM   #331
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Originally posted by KingPin
Well, if someone did not want to go to heaven, at least the heaven that Christianity believes in, then they would have to know that God loved them intensely, wanted to spend time with them, and wanted to feel their love in return, but they'd still turn away from it. They would have to feel in their heart that they did not need help from God, and that they did not need anything he offers. (For someone to not want to go to Heaven would mean that they do not want to feel loved or valuable, they do not want to be happy or at peace, they do not want life and knowledge, etc.)
I think its far more simple than that: worship something other than God. In today's world, that usually means, worship yourself. Put your own desires above what's best for everyone else, and Christianity suggests that the consequences will follow.
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:50 PM   #332
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RavenStar,

Heaven by definition is any place where you would be the most happy and blissed out and you would never get bored of it.

Everyone wants to go to heaven.
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Old 07-22-2002, 07:55 PM   #333
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In that case, to me "heaven" is the Music Camp I go to.
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Old 07-23-2002, 11:21 AM   #334
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Heaven by defintion also means that we get to be blissed out for all eternity too. So music camp would be close but since it is of finite duration, it could not technically be heaven.

Basically, heaven, to use your choice, would be the music camp that never ended but you would never get bored with it. You would never have to deal with anything you didn't want to deal with ever again etc. You would feel happy and fulfilled all the time.

Mine is a bit complicated to explain and I feel I can't really do it justice, but I see heaven as a place where there is no more destructive suffering like starvation, war, or emotional suffering etc. No hate or jealousy. But it would still be an interesting place with lots of challenges for those who are happiest when they are challenged like myself. It would be a chill place for those whose bliss is to chill. It would be full of the most amazing music including (especially) the 3 or 4 Nirvana albums that were never made. And everyone would be a big family, with noone cut off from one another. In other words there wouldn't be all these separate individual heavens but one great common heaven.

There would still be great thunderstorms and sunsets, volcanos and all the cool stuff we have here except noone would ever be hurt by the violent parts of nature.

Basically heaven would be all cool and no lame, forever.

I know it aounds like a pipe dream, but when I look at how f***ing amazing the universe is, I see the possibility of something even more amazing, maybe a whole other universe or universes. And I see the present universe as the work of a Being with enough imagination to make heaven rock like this universe never could. In fact it could even be said that Heaven is another universe that we gain access to when we leave our present bodies. Or else its the next universe which will replace this old one when the cycle of creation starts again. Or maybe we would get all the feeling of adventure and fulfillment we need just sitting at the feet of God. Whatever, being an optimist, I don't think its a stretch to believe that there is more and better out there waiting for us.

The Bible supports this view that there is more and better out there when it talks of a new heaven and a new earth. Although it describes these in metaphor, the message is still clear that we are to expect something really cool that will change everything.
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Old 07-23-2002, 06:19 PM   #335
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Spiritual pipe dream....
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Old 07-23-2002, 10:51 PM   #336
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
Spiritual pipe dream....
fuck pipe dreams.
I've experienced a little bit of heaven of earth and if its anything compared to the real thing
than I will be elated
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Old 07-23-2002, 11:04 PM   #337
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Thats right Basstrap, fuck spiritual pipe dreams! Go vital existance!
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Old 07-24-2002, 01:33 AM   #338
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Thats right Basstrap, fuck spiritual pipe dreams! Go vital existance!

Why does heaven, or religion for that matter, have to be a denial of vital existence? I fucking love existence and I believe in getting every last drop out of life and my religion backs me up on this. For me no one affirmed the value of man and of human existence more than Jesus. His story is the only one in the Abrahamic tradition where it is said that divine perfection came and coexisted in the physical plane with humans and enjoyed life while he was here. He had human friends whom he loved. He ate good food and drank good wine and went to weddings. Contrasted with other religions of this tradition who believe that God is too perfect to mix this way with us mere humans or else he would stop being so great, and you have a wonderful affirmation that in spite of the bad things about existence, there is still enough that good about it and us that The Divine wouldn't find it so awful to come for a visit IN PERSON.

Kind of like what I was saying in another thread. Who would be the greater King? The one who held himself aloof to maintain his perfect oh so royal dignity or the one who entered into the homes of his subjects and ate with them at their tables? And what kind of message would visiting King be sending about the value of his subjects lives? Would it be the same message if he just emailed them and told them he valued them?

For me I do not long for heaven while rejecting this world. For me heaven will be an extension of this wonderful existence. I believe that my wondeful existence won't cease when I die and it will actually get even better. I can't get enough and I want more and that's one the reasons (out of, like, a million) that I believe in my religion.

I've said it before but I'll say it again. Religion maximizes life and existence by saturating it with hope, joy, challenge, love and expectation beyond and in excess of the dry limits of pure rationality. It heightens experience and existence with maximum positivity. For me this is especially true of Christianity. As a believer I am having a blast. There are no limits to my horizons except the minimum restrictions not to hurt myself or others. Not even death can stop the party. The universe is my inheritance as a Child of God and I am looking forward to getting my full inheritance someday.

I agree with what Basstrap said. If the good stuff about this life is any indication of what heaven is like then I can't wait. And if it looks anything like Ireland, I'll be ecstatic.
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Old 07-24-2002, 02:58 AM   #339
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RavenStar,

You have a really negative view of spirituality. Where did you get the idea that spirituality is a denial of life? Did you have some bad role models or what?

To all the unspiritual out there,

Whats the point of setting limits on what's possible? or of limiting how amazing the universe can be?

That is not to say that i am against applying the brake now and then to the human imagination. Its good for us. But when we try to define the limits of the universe to the merely physical or measurable, that just seems too uptight to me.

Who is to say that the life energy that animates us and separates us from other creatures doesn't in fact continue into another phase of existence when we die? What do we know about it really? It seems pretty unique and for all we know, our consciousness could be the rarest most unique thing in all the universe. The life in us could capable of wonders we can't even imagine. It could be so dynamic and energetic that nothing can really put an end to it.

So why then would a different level of existence necessarily be a pipe dream? Isn't it scientifically possible that there are other universes? Isn't it scientifically possible that there was a universe before this one and that there will be another after this one? And what is wrong with equating Heaven with these modern concepts?

What if what we think of as death is really a step into another existence or universe of amazing freedom and possiblity for the life force in us? What if death means that we then enter into the ultimate communion between ourselves and the great life energy that animates the universe. ( Of course, even for us modern Christians, that force would actually still be a conscious and distinct set of Persons. I am not going all New Age here ) What if life as we know it is just some kind of larval stage for us?

I didn't get a chance to say this before, but I believe that Heaven won't just be different in terms of the lack of physical suffering found there. I think all the rules will be different. For instance, time and distance might become irrelevant. We might be able to explore a distant solar system without having to travel there. Or we could be in a crowd and still feel like we were cruising Rt 66 in an old Mustang. Intimacy with a loved one could go beyond sex. We could be high all the time but still be bright and functional. And although we would still have some sort of material existence, Heaven would not end up being some Fantasy Island type place where we would gorge endlessly on all the things we were denied in life. I think Heaven would be beyond the physical as we know it and beyond all present limits but it would be even more satisfying to us than the pleasures of physical existence. There would really be no such thing as insatiable greed or lust because we would be perfectly satisfied in everyway just existing there.

Going even beyond this, I think that all of this would be possible just by hooking up with The Creator after our death and tripping out on what he could teach us about what he knows. He knows everything about everything and through Him we could explore anything we wanted to, even the past. We would have ages in which to learn and experience and we would never run out of things to learn and experience.

Is it so impossible to believe that there could something like this in store for us? Why not have a little fun imagining what a new and improved existence might look like?

As you can probably tell, I've been having a lot of fun imagining the possiblities!
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Old 07-24-2002, 09:04 AM   #340
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I have been misquoted
woe is me

out, yo
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Old 07-24-2002, 10:57 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally posted by Basstrap


fuck pipe dreams.
I've experienced a little bit of heaven of earth and if its anything compared to the real thing
than I will be elated
What do you mean by saying that you were misquoted?

I took you to mean that you have experienced heaven on earth. And if Heaven is anything like the heaven you've experienced on earth then you will be elated.

I was agreeing that Earth is pretty great and if Heaven is anything like the blissful experiences I've had on Earth then Heaven will be great too.

I added in a personal note that if Heaven looks anything like Ireland, then I'll be ecstatic. I've seen Ireland, lived there for almost a year, and if Heaven doesn't look something like that then I'd be disappointed.

Or do you not believe in Heaven? Do you not want to go there? Is that what you mean by saying you were misquoted?
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Old 07-24-2002, 11:01 AM   #342
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I think he's referring to how RavenStar took his quote to mean that he agreed with her and rejected the idea of heaven... when in fact he was embracing the idea, and rejecting the concept that it was just a pipe dream.
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Old 07-24-2002, 11:24 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingPin
I think he's referring to how RavenStar took his quote to mean that he agreed with her and rejected the idea of heaven... when in fact he was embracing the idea, and rejecting the concept that it was just a pipe dream.
this is correct

and once again I have been misquoted
I am scandalised
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Old 07-24-2002, 01:24 PM   #344
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Allright. I get you now.

Sorry to be so paranoid. But I am disagreed with so much, its gotten to be a knee jerk reaction
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Old 07-24-2002, 01:28 PM   #345
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Allright. I get you now.

Sorry to be so paranoid. But I am disagreed with so much, its gotten to be a knee jerk reaction
Why are you so paranoid? Are you judging me to be some kind of killer/stalker.
I resent this
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