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Old 07-18-2002, 12:11 PM   #316
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Originally posted by KingPin
And I also believe that "sin" in the noun sense, does not really exist. God does not see us with a tally of different sins that we have on our record. Sin exists in the verb sense... and it is simply living in a manner that goes against those two basic rules of Christianity we discussed earlier.
For once I will have to disagree with you there Kingpin. Of course you are perfectly entitled to think this way but I think it may be a serious error.

Mind if I proceed?
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Old 07-18-2002, 01:00 PM   #317
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Old 07-18-2002, 01:33 PM   #318
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For once I will have to disagree with you there Kingpin. Of course you are perfectly entitled to think this way but I think it may be a serious error.

Mind if I proceed?
1. I don't think it's the first time you've disagreed with me... I know it's not the first I've disagreed with something you've said.

2. I may have stated my opinion poorly, so give the benefit of the doubt. As we are conversing on a message board, and not in person, it's easy to misinterpret. I'm willing to bet that if you believe the Bible to be true, then you agree with me.

3. I do believe that sin, at one point, was a noun... a blemish, a mark on our spiritual record. The reason that I believe this is no longer the case is that it says that when Jesus was killed, he took all the sins of the world (past, present, and future), and in fact <I>became</I> sin. If this is the case, when Jesus died and rose again, sin was no longer an issue. God is now concerned about how we as people react to this gift, to this love, and whether or not we love Him, and love His children.

4. I didn't mean to get into this, I just wanted to say that I believe Christianity is quite simple. Only two rules to live by, which apply to every aspect of our life. Only one thing to look out for, and ensure it doesn't creep into the different areas of our life
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:25 PM   #319
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3. I do believe that sin, at one point, was a noun... a blemish, a mark on our spiritual record. The reason that I believe this is no longer the case is that it says that when Jesus was killed, he took all the sins of the world (past, present, and future), and in fact <I>became</I> sin. If this is the case, when Jesus died and rose again, sin was no longer an issue. God is now concerned about how we as people react to this gift, to this love, and whether or not we love Him, and love His children.

Well then we do disagree.

I have only recently realized that sin is still a noun in a very real way. It is active in the world and most of all it acts upon the souls of those most vulnerable to it, twisting them out of shape. These folks in turn set about intentionally or unintentionally warping other people, especially their children or young people around them.

For me sin is like a progressive, infectious fatal disease. Once a person is exposed it will inevitably progress from an asymptomatic phase into multiple symtoms which are increasingly severe. As the symptoms accumulate they begin to wear down the soul's resistance to other sins in a kind of viscious cycle.

Sin enters our life subtly, but in the end it has very real and lasting effects. Much like the difference of one degree at the start of a journey makes a huge difference in where you eventually end up.

This for me explains the UBL's of the world, who started out like all the rest of us (although most thank God don't end up near as bad). The only way out of the viscious cycle then is to fall on the Grace of Jesus. When we believe in Jesus and recieve the Spirit into our hearts we become sensitive to sin and fully aware of its reality and its devastating effects. When the Spirit truly comes to reside in us, our footsteps are adhere to the path more easily through its power in us. (This of course does not mean that we become perfect)

For me the traditional Christian teaching about Original Sin is particularly useful to understand what I am saying. Sin is still in operation, a reality. Like a disease, sin takes souls which are born healthy and warps them through its action upon them in the physical world (I DO NOT believe in the Catholic teaching that babies are born with a load of sin on them) Therefore it takes more than just saying sorry to heal the damage. A divine healing must take place to stop the cycle of sin in ourselves and in the world and this can only happen through the activity of The Holy Spirit. Only by recieving the Spirit can our souls be unwarped so that we can truly see with unimpaired, though still finite, judgement.

Without the traditional concept of the reality of sin and its deadly corruption of our souls, we as people who believe in Jesus end up with nothing to say to religions which teach that no great sacrifice was required for our release from sin. Many religions teach that it is not neccesary to believe in Jesus since all we have to do is be really sorry for our sins in order to be given a clean slate. This in turn treats the awful consequences of sin as if it were basically nothing, a personal matter between you and God with no lasting effects. For these religions sin begins and ends with the individual. It does not, as Christianity teaches, have continuing serious repercussions like ripples in water which quickly reach people we never intended to harm. Therefore according to the thinking of some other religions, sin is not a great crime when there is no proof that innocent people were harmed. Thus no sacrifice, no Savior was necessary, thus there is no need to follow Jesus or believe that he is the Son of God. In their thinking only law is needed to deal with actual crimes and only sorry is needed for petty sins.

But of course we all know that no man is an island. We all know that even a white lie obeys the law of cause and effect. In other words it continues to have ramifications well beyong the original event unless it is stopped cold. We all know that a small sin can lead to a huge mess which just keeps growing. These consequences dont go away when we are sorry to God that we lied. Therefore in more ways than one, the much stronger Christian concept of sin is not only necessary, it also makes perfect sense.

I realize I probably rambled quite a bit here. Please don't believe that I am making any assumptions about you. I don't think we are that far apart but the difference is nonetheless significant enough to mention. I have just learned the hard way in my own personal walk, that sin the noun is very very real. I used to be very warped. I can see that now. But now I have been healed, now I truly see. I'm still not perfect but I wouldn't be the way i am at all if I didn't first believe that sin is still very real. This led me to believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was truly necessary which led me to accept Him as my Lord which led to my rebirth through The Spirit.

I am sure you believe that sacrifice was necessary too, but we seem to have come to very different conclusions about what happened to sin on that day. For me its still here but it has ceased to have the same effect on Christians as it does on those who think sin isn't that serious. For you it seems that you believe that it died that day and now it can't harm anyone even non-Christians.

The good news is that since we are both Christians who have been reborn through our belief in Jesus, we can have these differing opinions in all good conscience. We are free to disagree to a fairly large extent because we live in the all important state of Grace which comes through true belief in the Jesus of Christianity.
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Old 07-18-2002, 03:59 PM   #320
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Whiteflag, you seem to be talking about sin as a lifestyle. Sinning. This is the verb sense of which I am talking.

When you talk about sin tempting people, or grabbing people, or leading to other things, you're talking about living in a contrary manner to what God wants of you. Actions, doing, etc. Sin in that context will always exist as we will always disobey God. I don't understand why you are personifying sin, as if it has a mind, or an intent. I refuse to give sin that kind of importance or atrribute that kind of power to it. If sin can be a noun, then it is our disobedience, or unwillingness to follow the guidelines God laid out for us. I'm referring to the idea that every time I disobey God, another sin is added to a list I have to ask forgiveness for.

I'm not saying that we didn't need Jesus to give himself up so we could be free from sin. I believe that totally. But if he didn't take care of all the sins of the world at that time, then what he did wasn't as significant as we make it out to be. I just believe that when he did it, he saved us from an old system where our sins hung over our head like a jail sentence. He took care of the sin dilemma, and created a new one: Will you love me? Will you love your neighbor? Can we be friends?

What I am talking about is the idea that God looks at each of us with our sin tally for the day... 4 lies, 2 cheats, 1 insult, 3 lusts, etc. etc. That is ridiculous. Why? Because the Bible says that God is love, and when it describes love it says that love keeps no record of wrongs. So from that, I don't believe God is counting my many sins, waiting for me to ask for forgiveness again. That removes the concept of grace... it makes God out to be a stickler in heaven, waiting for us to screw up... watching for us to make another mistake, which is such a twisted view of God that it makes me sick. God is sitting in heaven, loving us with all his heart, hoping we'll return that love.

The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver.
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Old 07-18-2002, 04:01 PM   #321
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And incidentally, to all those who aren't Christians, sorry about all the jesus-speak and "christian-ese"... I didn't mean for my comments a few posts up to turn into this. I'm trying not to write my posts in a way that people can't understand what I'm talking about.
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:27 AM   #322
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There's no need to say sorry King Pin, althought a muslim, I'm interested in other religions, especially in christianity, I'm talking with a lot of christians in the internet,

about the communities and differences between Islam and Christianity, so I wanna know, how do the christians understand their religion....

I think that in the USA there are more christians, who really believe in the bible, in Germany, where I live, most ppl are "pro forma" christians.......most have problems with the trinity, as well as the muslims
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Old 07-22-2002, 10:39 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingPin

What I am talking about is the idea that God looks at each of us with our sin tally for the day... 4 lies, 2 cheats, 1 insult, 3 lusts, etc. etc. That is ridiculous. Why? Because the Bible says that God is love, and when it describes love it says that love keeps no record of wrongs. So from that, I don't believe God is counting my many sins, waiting for me to ask for forgiveness again. That removes the concept of grace... it makes God out to be a stickler in heaven, waiting for us to screw up... watching for us to make another mistake, which is such a twisted view of God that it makes me sick. God is sitting in heaven, loving us with all his heart, hoping we'll return that love.

The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver.
this is put very nicely.

God is our father and like an earthly father he will not come to us at the end of the day and give us a list of things we should repent of. Like an earthly father he will just enjoy it when we come to him and tell him how much we love him and how sorry we are that sometimes we fall down and how grateful we are that he is there to pick us up.
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:57 PM   #324
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I have a more lengthy reply to Kingpin that I just have to get typed in to the pc. But since I may procrastinate for a few more days yet, I thought I would say this real quick

I believe that Christians are exempt from the tally of sins hanging over our heads. Kingpin and Basstrap have both misunderstood me. For me sin the noun still exists BUT it works on the people who haven't been saved through belief in Jesus as we are taught in the Bible. I believe that non-Christians are working against insurmountable odds in trying to achieve their own salvation. I believe that non-Christians are far more prone to be adversely affected in their souls by the sin thats in the world because they lack the immunization of the Holy Spirit whom they reject.

I do not believe that everyone, Christian and non-Christian is running around with a pure, clean soul right now as Kingpin seems to be implying when he says that sin ceased to be a stain or a warping influenece on the world when Jesus died on the cross. What he seems to be saying is that no matter what you believe, everyone is already saved even if they don't know it yet. For me, the Bible clearly only gaurantees salvation for those who believe in Jesus and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit through that belief. Otherwise, it is much harder to achieve salvation mostly because even small sins like intellectual pride can warp a soul by stealing its full energy and its full capacity to Love which may keep it from fitting through the door of heaven.

The only gaurantee that our souls work at full capacity is to have the Spirit, who is God, dwell in us. Only God can prevent the power of sin to harm the soul and only he can put a soul back in its original condition ie it being a finite but perfectly suitable place for Him to dwell. Only His presence can bleed the soul of its petty sins which are the greatest danger to us and our salvation since they turn us into the opposite of the heroes we were meant to be and we will be judged in the end by how far we end up from that ideal.

That said I believe that our God who is both demanding and loving has created a door to heaven that is sufficiently wide for all Christians no matter how sucessful and wide enough for the most innocent non-Christians to fit through it. But it is by no means wide enough to accomodate all non-Christians.
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Old 07-22-2002, 03:07 PM   #325
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I don't know how you got this business of everyone being saved by reading kingpins post!!

I think is main qualm was with you personifying sin like its "coming to get us". Sin is a thing not some omnipresent person. It is something which exists on earth and acts as both a means AND an end. It can be the temptation and the result of the temptation.
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Old 07-22-2002, 03:41 PM   #326
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I was not personifying sin. If you will go back and read my post, you'll find that i was careful to characterize sin as a disease or else like a carcinogen much like radiation or a chemical in our environment. Poisons and diseases cannot think or act independently like a person can but they nonetheless effect the people who live where they are present. They can get you without having to consciously act.


I also exempted Christians from the warping effects of sin. Though we continue to sin, sin cannot warp our souls. If we are truly repentent of our daily sins, they are washed away by God as if they were nothing. If we are truly repentent we cannot fall from Grace.

There is no scenario where the sincere believer in Jesus will be rejected by God. However, those who reject Him and make their hearts hard will find their chances to be iffy at best.

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Old 07-22-2002, 04:15 PM   #327
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BTW Kingpin did make a statement to the effect that everyone is already forgiven, they just have to accept the forgiver. This is what led me to believe that he believes in universalism which is a Christian heresy (I don't mean that as strongly as it sounds. Thats just the word for it) Universalists use almost the exact same language when stating their belief that everyone regardless of belief is already saved. Maybe Kingpin only flirts with that line but doesn't cross it knowing better than that, but his statements make it seem otherwise.

He did say that sin, the noun, the stain, ceased to exist when Jesus died on the cross. That could very easily mean that non-Christians are as little damaged by sin as Christians are. From there its a very small step to say that non-Christians are already saved.

In my understanding, the orthodox Christian position (thats little "o", not big "O") is that escape from the stain of sin is only a potential, an offer extended to everyone. It is not already a fact which only has to be accepted. I know that we are getting into some high theological semantics here, but I sincerely believe that the distinctions in this case are very important.

If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord.
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Old 07-22-2002, 04:18 PM   #328
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If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord.
And what if someone would rather not go to heaven?
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Old 07-22-2002, 04:31 PM   #329
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Dude, you just said it yourself.

"If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord."

That's exactly what I mean by:

"The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver"

Are you saying that when Jesus died he didn't forgive everyone's sins? He only forgave some of them? Or the sins he forgave changes according to us... so if I ask forgiveness, then he forgave more sins than if I hadn't asked him? Jesus's death didn't overcome sin? It just covered the sin of certain people? I would call that heresy.

You also said this:

"He did say that sin, the noun, the stain, ceased to exist when Jesus died on the cross. That could very easily mean that non-Christians are as little damaged by sin as Christians are. From there its a very small step to say that non-Christians are already saved."

I'm not flirting with any heretical lines. I'm telling it as the Bible tells me. The Bible says that Christ became sin, and died (thus sin ceasing to exist), freeing us from the old law of a sin record, where we were always under a death sentence for our sins. He took that sentence away and placed it on himself. I'm not saying that everyone is saved. Not at all... I'm just clarifying the problem. He has salvation in his hands... do I accept him, and receive that gift? Or do I reject him, and push that gift away? This is the issue that we face today.

I do believe that we are all capable of sinning and so we will. I don't believe that God is counting all those sins (love keeps no record of wrongs), waiting for someone to say they're sorry... God is waiting for them to love Him and thank Him for what He did. And when a person truly does that, they will realize that they have sinned in the past, and turn from it, working towards a life that pleases God.
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Old 07-22-2002, 04:46 PM   #330
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And what if someone would rather not go to heaven?
Well, if someone did not want to go to heaven, at least the heaven that Christianity believes in, then they would have to know that God loved them intensely, wanted to spend time with them, and wanted to feel their love in return, but they'd still turn away from it. They would have to feel in their heart that they did not need help from God, and that they did not need anything he offers. (For someone to not want to go to Heaven would mean that they do not want to feel loved or valuable, they do not want to be happy or at peace, they do not want life and knowledge, etc.)

It should be noted that if they believe in the Christian idea of heaven, then they would are automatically ascribing faith in the concept of hell, which is essentially complete and utter separation from God, and complete separation from everyone and everything else. They would be choosing to be completely alone, without love, or light, or truth, or happiness, or even the hope of any of those things.

I believe that if someone truly understood what Heaven is, and truly understood what the alternative is, then they would jump at the chance to enter heaven, and take part in all that God is offering us in heaven.
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