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Old 05-13-2002, 08:55 PM   #166
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Thank you for your thoughtful replies.

Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
About love, the way that you described love Satanism doen't teach it. I personally don't understand how someone could help others out of this love you talk about. When I help others, it makes me feel good, that is why I do it. Of course, at first I'll help out a friend for their benefit, but in the end it makes me feel good. If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it? The only people I could see myself not enjoying helping are my enemies. They are my enemies for a reason. I donate money to charities all the time. Why? Because I like doing things like that. I do what I like to do. So the answer to your question is no, Satanism doesn't teach love, Satanism teaches you to spend time with your friends, family, and ppl you like. Doing things for enemies wouldnt make sense. In this case, it shouldn't teach love.
It seems to me, actually, that you may help out from a genuine concern for the other person, and the resulting good feelings are unexpected (albeit positive) side-effects. If not, there are, I think, other reasons.

Certainly, there are other selfish motivations, beyond the obvious (some hidden gains by being nice) and the good feelings that generally result from doing good. There's the belief that God will reward you for your good works; while it's true He may bless you, it seems like that's a lesser reason to do good. At the same time, there's the fear that you will be punished for not doing good (karma, what goes around comes around). And there's the guilt that results from not helping people, guilt that stems from the fact that you believe you have a duty to do good.

But all of those are, in my mind, lesser motivations than genuine, selfless, disinterested concern for your neighbor. I'm not saying that doing good for the reasons above is bad, per se; but doing good for TRULY selfless reasons strikes me as the better way.

What are some things that can lead one to believe that one SHOULD help everyone, including one's enemies?

- We're all human. We're all dignified creatures, part of a species capable of reason and beauty. At the very least, we're all living things, all creations - equal in the eyes of a disinterested universe, or equally God's creations.

- We're all good to some degree. Certainly, there are those that are guilty of some of the most heinous acts imaginable, but certain philosophies and religions hold that all of us contain at least SOME goodness, some worthiness of love.

- We're not responsible for the circumstances of our birth. There's an old saying, "There, but by the grace of God, go I." It means that, had things been different, you could very easily be that homeless man on the street, the child with a serious learning disability, or the man convicted of murder. It's not to excuse the behavior of others, but to recognize that we COULD HAVE chosen the same path given the same circumstances.

- We ourselves are not worthy of love. A Christian idea, it suggests that if one REALLY examines one's own life, you'll see it poisoned with acts of sheer selfishness, anger, hatred, and cowardice. And yet we would like to be loved, despite our shortcomings.

- While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This is at least a belief specific to Christianity, but the crux of it is universal (though certainly not universally accepted). The idea is that GOD LOVES US, not because of what few good acts we're truly responsible for, but DESPITE the terrible acts that can be laid at our feet. God loves us, and He loved us when we were truly unlovable; so too we should love our neighbors, even when they have done nothing to earn that love.

(If Christ's parable is to be believed, we are overwhelmed in our shortcomings, villagers who owe the Heavenly King millions of dollars. Despite that, the King forgave our tremendous debts, so we simply should not begrudge our fellow villagers who owe us, by comparison, five or ten dollars.)


If you search those reasons for personal benefits, an answer to the question, "what's in it for me?" you won't find it. That's the point: love is ultimately not about what good it does to the one who loves, it's about the good it does to the one BEING LOVED. It's a DUTY that I honestly believe we must commit ourselves too.

At the same time, if you accept that we are unlovely - that we have all willingly and deliberately strayed from God and the path He set out for us, that we are truly responsible for our own sins - then you will find no reason God should love us, either.

But if you then ponder the possibility that He loves us despite ourselves, and loves us completely, you'll find yourself standing at the threshold of the most amazing thing man will have EVER encountered: divine grace. And if you walk through the door and accept His grace and forgiveness, you will find yourself transformed.


To be honest, there's another reason why loving only your friends strikes a false note with me. Satanism speaks of "kindness to those who deserve it," and it begs the question, how do you determine worthiness?

One could keep a tally of "good deeds" and "bad deeds." Certainly, that sounds silly, but I've seen people act like they're keeping just such a list. There are husbands, wives, parents, and children who keep mental lists against people they should love the most. And I've even seen list-takers among immature Christians (again, meant literally as those who have accepted Christ but have not grown in Christ, through either being new to Christianity or not honestly committed to it 100%); certainly, I'm guilty of the same crime. So, silly as it is, it seems instructive.

So, what kind of tally should we keep? Should all good and bad acts be treated equally, or should especially evil deeds cost more? How much more?

Should deeds in the far past be worth less as their effects are felt less strongly? Or should they be MORE important as the person is unrepentant about the transgressions of the distant past?

Should bad deeds be erased if the person sincerely apologizes? And should they be redrawn (with extra marks) if the person slides back into the same routine?

And should a person's past and motives be taken into account, even if you have to guess at it?

And at the end of the day, how much is enough to call someone good? 50-50, good acts to bad acts? 60-40? 85-15?

My point is this: if you DON'T keep such a list, aren't you running the risk of loving someone who is unworthy of your love? But if you DO keep a tally, how can you actually love the person involved? How can you honestly love someone if you're so thoroughly scrutinizing their every move?

Universal, selfless love may lead to misery, but only on the part of the one who loves. Taken to its natural conclusion, the road of universal love sometimes leads to the angry prisoner or the contagious leper, and it may even lead to the cross.

But taken to its natural conclusion, love based on worthiness leads to misery for everyone else - because they are either all unworthy or are coldly evaluated on a daily basis.
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Old 05-13-2002, 09:15 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
Also, you talked about being a guest in someones house. satanic rule #3, When in anothers lair, show him respect or else do not go there. I (just like almost everyone else) expects people to follow the same rules as them. If I went to someones lair and disrespected him, he should treat me cruelly and without mercy, for I deserve that after what I did to him. Same the other way too. If he comes into my lair and disrespects me, I will treat him cruelly and without mercy.
There are two problems here, I think: one is that the old adage may apply, that two wrongs do not make things right. Something could be said for justice, but the rule seems to be based on satisfying the need for vengeance. Justice - having the unfriendly guest fix what went wrong, removing him from your house, or not inviting him back - doesn't seem to be the main concern.

But there's a more disturbing problem. The rule, as posted, is this: If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

What if he annoys you unintentionally? (Of course, that leads to the bigger problem, how do you determine intent?)

Or what if you annoyed YOUR host unintentionally? Should he then treat you cruelly and mercilessly?

And even if you can somehow account for intent, what if you were intentionally rude for external reasons (you had a bad day), or as simply an unexpected break from your normal behavior? Suppose you were rude because you felt like it, though you may regret the action later.

Is there no room for mercy?

The 21 Satanic Points would seem to disagree with me: Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong.

But aren't we ALL weak?

Is there one of us who can force existence to grant us another day of life past the day our physical bodies give out? Is there any of us who can do things over, who can take back words and deeds we'd like to take back? Is there any of us immune from the injuries of disease, the mispoken word, and our own selfishness and misjudgment?

I would say, certainly not. So, let mercy fall like rain, because mercy is the only way we can live.


Again, thanks for your replies, and pardon me if I decide to comment on more of the 21 points; some of them deserve my attention.

Bubba
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Old 05-13-2002, 09:34 PM   #168
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Before you treat them cruelly and without mercy you should ask them to stop what they are doing. rule #11 says to ask him to stop, then, if he doesn't, destroy him.

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Old 05-13-2002, 10:44 PM   #169
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Even so, destroying someone for annoying you - even if you ask him to stop, and even if destroying him is little more than causing him to have a bad day - doesn't strike me as a pursuit of justice, but merely quenching revenge.

"Eye for an eye" has ruled this world for millenia - broken only intermittently by an honest attempt to "love thy neighbor" - and I doubt anybody would say the world is better off for it.
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Old 05-13-2002, 11:06 PM   #170
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Bubba:

Going out west for the Auburn-Southern Cal game Labor Day?

~U2Alabama
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Old 05-14-2002, 12:05 AM   #171
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Bubba, thank you for your witness this day. I am not lying to you when I say this: As I read your above posts, I said to myself "God is giving Achtung Bubba the perfect words". It is good that you let the Holy Spirit speak through you rather than using your own earthly wisdom. That is what we should all do in every situation.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike
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Old 05-14-2002, 04:55 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:

2. "Doing no harm."

It seems that, at its VERY best, Satanism reminds me of what I've been told Wicca represents, the ideal of "do no harm."
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Old 05-14-2002, 10:27 AM   #173
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Seems like the Palestinians and Israelis have been reading The Black Book:

Quote:
III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace
VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done
IX - And die rather than submit
X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art
XII - The blood of the living makes good fertilizer for the seeds of the new
XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest

[This message has been edited by Too Much Asleep (edited 05-14-2002).]
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Old 05-14-2002, 10:53 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
Before you treat them cruelly and without mercy you should ask them to stop what they are doing. rule #11 says to ask him to stop, then, if he doesn't, destroy him.

Ravenstar, this has been very interesting stuff to read. I've a question for you, and it's meant as a sincere question, though it might seem rhetorical. It's obvious to me that you're working from a totally different paradigm than I, so I don't think I should assume much about what you believe. Here's the question. If a guest in your lair annoyed you, would consider killing him/her if you thought you had a good chance of not being caught?
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Old 05-14-2002, 02:25 PM   #175
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I never realized how incredibly similar Satanism is to Objectivism (a la Ayn Rand). I knew the basic gist, but have never seen the points enumerated. Did Satanism evolve out of Objectivism, or are the two unrelated?

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Old 05-14-2002, 05:50 PM   #176
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Spiral,
If the guest annoys me I wouldnt kill them. They would have to do worse than that to want me to kill them. There is no way I could get away for murder. I dont want to go to jail, so I dont break laws.

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Old 05-14-2002, 06:05 PM   #177
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This is all very interesting. Thank you Raven Star
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Old 05-14-2002, 06:22 PM   #178
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your welcome

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Old 05-14-2002, 06:25 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
Spiral,
If the guest annoys me I wouldnt kill them. They would have to do worse than that to want me to kill them. There is no way I could get away for murder. I dont want to go to jail, so I dont break laws.

RavenStar while I completely disagree with most of the tenets of Satanism as you have outlined them, for some reason this most recent comment troubles me most.

Your motivation or reason for not committing a murder would be possible jail time? Then I would venture to say that your 'religion' is failing you, as far as I can see the main reasons why you should not kill anyone is because it is morally wrong, not because you might be jailed for it.

Another might say its because God says not to, but I'm not sure if I remember if you believe in God. But if you do, theres another good reason. But if you don't (believe in God), then who made Satan? Satan is a biblically created entity, so if you believe in Satan, don't you have to at least acknowledge the presence of God? As far as I know not even Satan himself would deny the existence of his Creator...

Gabriel




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Old 05-14-2002, 07:34 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox:
RavenStar while I completely disagree with most of the tenets of Satanism as you have outlined them, for some reason this most recent comment troubles me most.

Your motivation or reason for not committing a murder would be possible jail time? Then I would venture to say that your 'religion' is failing you, as far as I can see the main reasons why you should not kill anyone is because it is morally wrong, not because you might be jailed for it.

Another might say its because God says not to, but I'm not sure if I remember if you believe in God. But if you do, theres another good reason. But if you don't (believe in God), then who made Satan? Satan is a biblically created entity, so if you believe in Satan, don't you have to at least acknowledge the presence of God? As far as I know not even Satan himself would deny the existence of his Creator...

Gabriel


From what I have understood Raven Star believes in neither God nor Satan. If I am wrong please correct me.
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