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Old 05-12-2002, 07:57 PM   #151
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The destroy part doesnt have to be physical. You could give the person a bad day or something.

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Old 05-13-2002, 12:43 AM   #152
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I've come across this thread a couple of times while I've been on this extended vacation of mine, and I can no longer ignore my instinct to reply. As a Christian, I MUST address certain aspects of Satanism as presented here:

1. Naturalism.

It seems like Satanism suggests that man is merely another animal, and as such, he should simply act like another animal.

First, how things ARE can never lead to the conclusion of how things SHOULD be. Even if we are merely animals, that doesn't imply that we should act like them.

Second, animal behavior is simply too varied to use as a judge of how we should behave. Some animals actually raise their young, some abandon their young, and some EAT their young.

2. "Doing no harm."

It seems that, at its VERY best, Satanism reminds me of what I've been told Wicca represents, the ideal of "do no harm."

As long as people indulge themselves in a way that doesn't harm certain people it would be pointless to act vengence

Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.


Certainly, "do no harm" seems like a bare minimum one can expect from his fellow man, but is it REALLY the ideal?

Christ certainly didn't think so: he commanded to not only avoid doing harm, but to intentionally do good, to treat others as you would be treated - to "love thy neighbor as thyself."

When asked to define who one's neighbor was, Christ gave the example of the Good Samaritan: a man was mugged, beaten, and left for dead. The first two men that saw him - both community leaders - "did no harm" and left the man alone. The third man, the Samaritan (a half-breed reviled by Jewish leaders), went out of his way to help the man.

Certianly, the two men that passed the injured man weren't responsible for the fact that he was mugged and bleeding to death. But that doesn't seem like enough. It honestly seems like ONLY the Samaritan did the truly RIGHT thing.

RavenStar, it seems like Satanism would criticize the Samaritan for interfering. Do you HONESTLY believe that he was NOT the better man? That the two men who walked on by did the MORE CORRECT thing?

3. The "selfishness" of benevolence.

Certainly, there are times when people help others because it makes them "feel better." But there are also occasions when GENUINE CONCERN motivates helping others, and good feelings is a merely an unintended by-product. And there are ALSO times when people help others DESPITE the fact that they do themselves harm in the process, DESPITE the fact that they don't get "good feelings" for their selfless actions.

Are those who help others because of self-interest ACTUALLY BETTER than those who are more concerned with others?

4. Retaliation.

While Satanism in the best light proscribes the ideal of "doing no harm," at its worst it supports outright retaliation:

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!

If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Everyone reading should be clear on this point: this is in COMPLETE opposition to the basic tenets of Christianity. As Christ said (Matthew 5:47-48), "If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

When you treat others without mercy, you live outside of grace yourself. You should have no expectation for mercy from your peers, and the New Testament implies that God Almighty will not ultimately show mercy to the merciless. (See Matthew 18:23-35 and Mark 11:26.)

Let me put it another way. One of the "Satanic Rules of the Earth" is the following: "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." Reverse that rule: If you are a guest in someone's house and you annoy the host, you should be treated crueely and without mercy.

First, is that what you really want? Second, does that ACTUALLY sound good?

5. The object of worship.

The discussion in this thread points to the fact that Satanism is the exaltation of the self, not the actual worship of the fallen angel.

Its more of a philosophy actually. Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil.

it is a religion of the self. A satanist will always put themselves first. Indulgence is a huge thing in Satanism. The best way to live your life is to live it.


It ultimately doesn't matter WHAT you put first if it's not God. Worship Satan, yourself, your family, it doesn't matter. The first commandment of Christianity is to love God with all your mind, heart, and soul; it's NOT simply abstaining from devil worship.


RavenStar, everyone, I believe this discussion is worthwhile, and it certainly should continue. I just felt it necessary to point out what I think is obvious: Christianity and Satanism are wholy incompatible - regardless of whether the Satanist worships himself or a demon, regardless of how thoroughly we are assured that they do not harm animals or children.

Christianity acknowledges and worships the almighty God, who is both good and great; omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; ever-constant and ever-loving; just and merciful. Satanism does not.

Christianity preaches unselfish, disinterested love, totally against the idea of retaliation and beyond the idea of doing no harm. Satanism does not.

Certainly, Satanism seems more reasonable, easier to accept, and easier to attain.

But Christianity seems BETTER, HIGHER, and closer to the way things SHOULD be. It strikes me as the fullest expression of LOVE.

Or does Satanism deny love, too?
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Old 05-13-2002, 01:07 AM   #153
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I am Catholic, but I believe each individual must choose which path is right for them.

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Old 05-13-2002, 09:16 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
The destroy part doesnt have to be physical. You could give the person a bad day or something.

Well in that case I couldn't see myself having problems with any of that

If you could give me anymore info I would be really grateful

My email addy is:

tamalesgypsy@aol.com

Thanks again
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Old 05-13-2002, 11:03 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
80's,
how can you help others when you can't help yourself?
I'm not saying people shouldn't be concerned about themselves. What I'm saying is that that we shouldn't always put our needs above others.
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Old 05-13-2002, 11:11 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
I've come across this thread a couple of times while I've been on this extended vacation of mine, and I can no longer ignore my instinct to reply. As a Christian, I MUST address certain aspects of Satanism as presented here:
Welcome back, Bubba.
And might I say, Raven Star, that even though I have disagreed with you on this whole issue, you have not reponded bitterly, or called me names, or even become angry. I respect that very much. Some people in this forum don't like to be diagreed with, and let you know by calling you names.
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Old 05-13-2002, 02:04 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Welcome back, Bubba.
And might I say, Raven Star, that even though I have disagreed with you on this whole issue, you have not reponded bitterly, or called me names, or even become angry. I respect that very much. Some people in this forum don't like to be diagreed with, and let you know by calling you names.
Thanks, though I will probably only be posting in this thread, and intermittently, as I'm in the midst of finals and about to take a vacation in the real world.


Just to reiterate, my first post was not meant in any ill will - it was an honest effort to present my views and to more fully contrast Christianity and Satanism, because the contrast is so VERY great.

I believe Satanism is, at best, humanism that sets the idea of doing no harm as the ideal, rather than the bare minimum of human behavior. At worst, it reveals moments of hedonism (in the strict sense of the word), selfishness, and the complete denial of the spirit.

It appears that the religion/philosophy never ascends to transcendent love and often descends into diabolical pride. For that reason, I hope those here approach it very thoughtfully - and those that follow it carefully consider what they're doing.


And, to clarify (before anyone accuses me of doing otherwise), I was not being facetious
when I asked whether Satanism denies love.

I note that one of the "Nine Satanic Statements" is the following: Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! The statement does not actually represent love, merely kindness; not to read to much into things, but I believe the omission to be intentional.

I further note what appears to be a denial (or, at the very least, a de-emphasis) of all things spiritual: Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! The command to love universally is a spiritual command, one that does not arise our carnal instincts; such an emphasis on the physical realm would seem to downplay such spiritual commands.

Finally, I recall C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters, a work of instructive fiction in which we see the letters of a beuracratic demon to his nephew. In them, you see the demon Screwtape occasionally raise what Hell finds to be the biggest mystery of all: why "The Enemy" (God, from Hell's perspective) has gone to so much trouble to create, look after, and ultimately redeem the human animals. Screwtape admits that God claims He loves them, but Hell cannot accept that. There MUST be an ulterior motive, because Satan himself cannot see the advantage in love. Satan himself cannot FATHOM love.

With all respect, I see shades of the same attitude in RavenStar's posts, the quotes from the Satanic resources, and Satanic websites I myself have found. There seems to be a complete denial of the possibility that one can or should love another selflessly - that there MUST be a personal advantage in love (good feelings, etc.) or that one simply shouldn't love.

(As an aside, I note that a LOT of the material about Satanism sounds like the Screwtape Letters - the same emphasis of pleasure, pride, and the exaltation of the self. That worries me.)

(I also recall a passage, though I was unable to find it in the few minutes I glanced through the book, that Lewis - through Screwtape - finds that magicians and humanists are on the same road, are quickly removing themselves from "The Enemy" and approaching the kingdom of "The Father Below." That worries me even more.)


So, I believe the question is valid:

Does Satanism teach love? Not just the instinctive emotions of warmth a child feels for his mother, a mother for her child, a woman for her lover - those are all mere emotions; morally neutral, they can be used for good and bent toward evil. No, I'm referring to the COMMAND TO LOVE: charity, doing what's in your neighbor's best interest despite your own concerns.

(Christ commanded us to love our neighbors, but it is almost certain He didn't expect us to have loving feelings for all of them, and certainly not all the time. He told us plainly: clothe the cold, feed the hungry, comfort the lonely, help treat the sick. None of these require emotions of love, but rather require a deliberate act of humility on the part of the human will.)

WELL THEN, does Satanism teach love?

If it doesn't, should it?

And if it doesn't and it SHOULD, should we perhaps look for the truth down other roads?
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Old 05-13-2002, 04:44 PM   #158
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80's, I wouldnt call others names because that gets this discussion nowhere. Somethimes I enjoy dissagreeing(sp?) with ppl, It makes a discussion more interesting. You get less replies like "I agree", people put more thought into their post when they dissagree(sp?).

About love, the way that you described love Satanism doen't teach it. I personally don't understand how someone could help others out of this love you talk about. When I help others, it makes me feel good, that is why I do it. Of course, at first I'll help out a friend for their benefit, but in the end it makes me feel good. If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it? The only people I could see myself not enjoying helping are my enemies. They are my enemies for a reason. I donate money to charities all the time. Why? Because I like doing things like that. I do what I like to do. So the answer to your question is no, Satanism doesn't teach love, Satanism teaches you to spend time with your friends, family, and ppl you like. Doing things for enemies wouldnt make sense. In this case, it shouldn't teach love.

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Old 05-13-2002, 04:50 PM   #159
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Also, you talked about being a guest in someones house. satanic rule #3, When in anothers lair, show him respect or else do not go there. I (just like almost everyone else) expects people to follow the same rules as them. If I went to someones lair and disrespected him, he should treat me cruelly and without mercy, for I deserve that after what I did to him. Same the other way too. If he comes into my lair and disrespects me, I will treat him cruelly and without mercy.

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Old 05-13-2002, 04:56 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
If you want I can post some more stuff like the nine satanic sins, the 21 satanic points (released by the Order of The Nine Angels). But only if you want.

Could you post these also, please? Thanks.

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Old 05-13-2002, 05:23 PM   #161
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The Nine Satanic Sins
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.

STUPIDITY-- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

PRETENTIOUSNESS-- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

SOLIPSISM -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

SELF-DECIET-- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

HERD CONFORMATY-- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

LACK OF PERSPECTIVE-- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

FORGETFULNESS OF PAST ORTHODOXIES -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

COUNTERPRODUCTIVE PRIDE-- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.

LACK OF AESTHETICS-- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.


21 Satanic points

I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong
II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success
III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace
IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long
V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow
VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die
VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time
VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done
IX - And die rather than submit
X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art
XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all
XII - The blood of the living makes good fertilizer for the seeds of the new
XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest
XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just
XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow
XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest
XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates
XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness
XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman
XX - regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong
XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger

From: The Black Book of Satan



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Old 05-13-2002, 07:11 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it?
So in other words if you did not benefit in any way, did not feel good from helping another human being you would not do it, even if that person's life depended on your helping them?



[This message has been edited by babble (edited 05-13-2002).]
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Old 05-13-2002, 07:45 PM   #163
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The only person I would not benefit from helping is my enemy.

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Old 05-13-2002, 07:57 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
The only person I would not benefit from helping is my enemy.

Well, that doesn't quite answer my question though however I am wondering, who would you consider an enemy? What would someone have to do to become an enemey?

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Old 05-13-2002, 08:11 PM   #165
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I don't have any enemies so I can't answer your question.

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