Other religions

[Bonoa]

Kingpin,

I think you're a nice guy, but saying that all other religions are not from the same God is a very 'dangerous thing to say.

The world is so big and so many cultures are in it. There was the era of colonization, where the colonists just slaughtered and enslaved people, simply because they didn't believe in the God of the colonists. They looked down on the native people. Evangelists and western politicians are still trying to spread the 'white culture' over the whole world.
Many cultures died because of that and it is still one of the first things of discrimination and fundamentalism. (I don't say that you discriminate, but some might do it, like the killed Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, who was a Catholic and said that the Islam is a stupid culture)

Maybe Jesus was the Son of God, but I think the other prophets or Gurus(like Muhammed or Buddha) were also close to God. They just explained His existence from their own understandable point of view and I think that Jesus did the same thing. (an emic-thing, according to cultural anthropologists) But many elements of ancient cultures remained, like Christmas-trees, voo-doo in Cuba and so on.
All religions preach the same things like; don't kill anyone, love each other, be respectful and so on.

Open your mind. There is much, much more to explore...............

 

[AM]

What's interesting is that this topic was intended for discussions other than Christianity.

I?ve been trying to point that out a couple of times, but...

 

[RavenStar]

*points out new Christianity post she made*

 

[KingPin]

Kingpin,

I think you're a nice guy, but saying that all other religions are not from the same God is a very 'dangerous thing to say.

The world is so big and so many cultures are in it. There was the era of colonization, where the colonists just slaughtered and enslaved people, simply because they didn't believe in the God of the colonists. They looked down on the native people. Evangelists and western politicians are still trying to spread the 'white culture' over the whole world.
Many cultures died because of that and it is still one of the first things of discrimination and fundamentalism. (I don't say that you discriminate, but some might do it, like the killed Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, who was a Catholic and said that the Islam is a stupid culture)

Maybe Jesus was the Son of God, but I think the other prophets or Gurus(like Muhammed or Buddha) were also close to God. They just explained His existence from their own understandable point of view and I think that Jesus did the same thing. (an emic-thing, according to cultural anthropologists) But many elements of ancient cultures remained, like Christmas-trees, voo-doo in Cuba and so on.
All religions preach the same things like; don't kill anyone, love each other, be respectful and so on.

Open your mind. There is much, much more to explore...............

Bonoa, you make some accurate observations about the problems associated with fundamentalism and discrimination. And many religions do preach the same things in their doctrine... however, just because they agree on points does not make them identical.

In my above post I stated this, but I'll summarize... thourought history the gods of the west were personal, but finite, and the gods of the east were infinite but not personal. The Christian faith is the only one that trusts in a God that is both infinite and personal. And when religions differ on the very focus of their belief system, they can hardly be said to be the same.

 

[AM]

All religions preach the same things like; don't kill anyone, love each other, be respectful and so on.

Open your mind. There is much, much more to explore...............

thanks Bonoa, I was starting to think I?m the only one who sees this

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I agree that most religions preach very similar moral laws - a fact that C.S. Lewis used in "Mere Christianity" to suggest that the moral law is, in fact, a reality of our existence and not just a human invention; something like the multiplication table rather than the customs of what side of the road cars drive on.

So, in terms of the standards of behavior that religions set, one could say that they are pretty much the same.

The problem is, religion is not just concerned with the standards of behavior - or even PRIMARILY concerned with those standards. The primary concern of all religions is WHO made those standards: the nature of God.

On that subject, religions can be radically different. Some say there is no god (atheism - which requires just as much belief as theism and is thus, in my mind, simply an alternative religion). Some say there is a God (or gods), but He is an impersonal energy force. Others - most notably Judaism, Christianity - believe in a SUPREMELY personal God, and Christianity asserts that God Himself became a person.

And beyond the questions of the Creator and the standards He created, there is the question of the consequences; again, we see vastly different answers. Some religions believe there is no permanent consequence; when we die, we simply die. Some believe that the consequence manifests itself through reincarnation into an appropriate form of life. Some believe that if we're simply "good enough," we'll be accepted in Paradise. And one (Christianity) asserts that we're all doomed by our own selfishness, saved only accepting the sacrificial love God is freely giving.

Ultimately, only a handful of these faiths will be even close to being right about these questions. Take the question of His existence: either He exists, or He doesn't. Either the atheists are right, or we theists are right. The bottom line is, there IS a right answer.

So, different religions have VERY different answers to these VERY important questions. The answer DOES matter, so which religion you follow does also matter.

 

[whiteflag]

As always my compliments go out to Bubba.

I especially liked this

The problem is, religion is not just concerned with the standards of behavior - or even PRIMARILY concerned with those standards. The primary concern of all religions is WHO made those standards: the nature of God.

That has been one of my favorite themes lately. But it is so cool to see someone say it in a few sentences instead of trying to write a novel like I do.

I just could not agree more. But I would like add a couple addled thoughts of my own because I think its valuable to understand that the real benefits to having the right answer go beyond the personal benefits of salvation.

It matters what we think of God because what we think of him affects everything else we think about whether a person believes in Him or not. This in turn effects how we view reality and how we make our decisions. And these things have direct consequences on how we conduct our relationships with others.

Plainly, no simple moral code is enough to deal with the incredible complexities of human relationships. Human needs can't be met with a system of legal formalities regulating our interactions with one another. But the higher aspect of religion that Bubba is talking about is more than up to handling the job because when we attempt to sort out our relationship with Reality we end up also sorting out how we plan to deal with the people in our lives as part of the process. Noone can deny that this is an important endeavor or that its important to get it right.

The most important thing then about any religion is that it offers its believers a framework or mode through which we sort out our relationships to everything and everyone. Since this framework begins with a religions concept of God we end up with vastly different results when a religion starts with, say, a distant God as opposed to a personal one. The religions of distant Gods will endlessly repeat this theme of distance throughout its teachings on actual human relationships. The one that starts with a personal God will advocate much more engagement and intimacy in its teachings on relationships. The religion of a distant God which has a lot of regulations to maintain our distance from God will have much more regulation or barriers defining human interaction which impairs true sharing and intimacy. One that has a close God will have little to get in the way of closeness with all of creation.

The implications go on and on. A lot like me I guess....

Sorry

Long story short, having the right answer about God will lead to the ideal way to deal with people.

 

[AM]

The most important thing then about any religion is that it offers its believers a framework or mode through which we sort out our relationships to everything and everyone.

so true, Whiteflag!


This is from the Hidden Words by Bah?'u'll?h I wanted to share with you. I think no matter what religion we are, we can all appreciate those words of wisdome.


O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.



O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.



O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I'll probably be criticized as too nit-picky, but, here it goes...

AM, I do appreciate the sentiment in which you posted, and I find nothing wrong with the first and third verses. That said, I disagree with the second verse:

O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

Put simply, Christianity asserts that God loves us unconditionally, that He loved us while we were unlovable:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

We are capable of love precisely because He first loved us.

...and while that's certainly not a minor point, it doesn't diminish the spirit in which you posted.

 

[AM]

Put simply, Christianity asserts that God loves us unconditionally, that He loved us while we were unlovable:

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

We are capable of love precisely because He first loved us.

...and while that's certainly not a minor point, it doesn't diminish the spirit in which you posted.

Bubba, it took me a while to understand this quote as well. It?s a bit confusing.

It does not mean that God only loves us when we love him. No! God loves us whatever we do! Whoever we are! But we are not able to feel His love, recognize His love until we recognize God and love him. Does this makes sence to you

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Bubba, it took me a while to understand this quote as well. It?s a bit confusing.

It does not mean that God only loves us when we love him. No! God loves us whatever we do! Whoever we are! But we are not able to feel His love, recognize His love until we recognize God and love him. Does this makes sence to you

Certainly, it makes sense; and I believe "If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee," can DEFINITELY be interpreted that way, on its own. However, the first sentence, "Love Me, that I may love thee," does imply otherwise.

At the very least, it's ambigious, and Christianity is fairly clear about God's love being unconditional, and I just wanted to make sure that fact was known.

Having said that, I see no problem in letting this thread continue discussing other religions in general.

Bubba

 

[oliveu2cm]

Just wanted to say this is an interesting conversation and I've been reading along. I dont have much time to be able to contribute daily, but I agree with everything Bubba is saying so eloquently.

 

[RavenStar]

I was wondering, what holidays do you all celebrate here? The other religions I mean, not Christianity, everyone knows all about them already. I'll start. In order of most important:
My birthday(June 24)
Halloween(October 31)
Waltpurgisnacht day(April 30)

Waltpurgisnacht day is the anniversary of the Church of Satan (CoS). Although Im not a member, nor do I like churches, the holiday is still fun. Waltpurgisnacht day is a day of indulgence for Satanists.

 

[AM]

there are quite a few holy days in the bahai faith.

Feast of Naw-R?z March 21
Naw-Ruz is the Baha?i New Year. It coincides with the first day of spring.

First Day of Ridvan April 21 (Declaration of Baha'u'llah, 1863, at 3 pm)
For twelve days, April 21 to May 2, Baha'is celebrate the period in 1863 when Baha'u'llah, the Prophet-Founder of the Baha'i Faith resided in a garden in Baghdad which He called "the Garden of Ridvan." During this period Baha'u'llah proclaimed his mission as God's messenger for this age.

Ninth Day of Ridv?n April 29

Twelfth Day of Ridv?n May 2

Declaration of The B?b, 1844 May 23 (at about two hours after sunset)
May 23, 1844 marks the beginnings of the Bah?'? Faith in Shiraz, Persia (Iran). The Bab, which means the "Gate", proclaimed on that date that He was not only the Founder of an independent religion, but also the Herald of a new and greater Prophet or Messenger of God, Who would usher in an age of peace for all mankind.

Ascension of Baha'u'llah, 1892 May 29 (at 3 am)
Baha'u'llah, Prophet-Founder of the Baha'i Faith, passed away in 1892 near Akka, Palastine (Israel).

Martyrdom of The Bab, 1850 July 9 (at noon)
On July 9, Baha'is commemorate the execution of the Bab, Prophet-Herald of the Baha'i Faith, on that date in 1850 in Tabriz, Persia (Iran).

Birth of The Bab, 1819 October 20
October 20 The anniversary of the birth of the B?b Baha'is commemorate the birth of the Bab (the "Gate") the Prophet-Herald of the Baha'i Faith. The Bab was born in 1819 in Shiraz, Iran.

Birth of Baha'u'llah, 1817 November 12
November 12 The anniversary of the birth of Baha'u'llah Baha'is commemorate the birth of Baha'u'llah, the Prophet-Founder of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 in Tehran, Iran.



there are a few more, but those are the most holy ones

 

[RavenStar]

I don't want this thread to die. I do have one little question for the Christians out there. So Jesus loves everyone? Does that mean that he loves this "Devil" you all speak of? Does he love Judas? Does he love Osama bin Laden? Rapists? Child molesters? Me?
Just wanted to know.

HS!

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I don't want this thread to die. I do have one little question for the Christians out there. So Jesus loves everyone? Does that mean that he loves this "Devil" you all speak of? Does he love Judas? Does he love Osama bin Laden? Rapists? Child molesters? Me?
Just wanted to know.

HS!

Everyone? Yes.
The Devil? Yes.
Judas? Yes.
Osama? Yes.
Rapists? Yes.
Child molesters? Yes.

YOU? Yes.

Let's take the most extreme case - Satan. We believe Satan is a fallen angel: created by God (NOT equal to Him), endowed with free will, and fallen because he chose to rebel against God.

To cite Mere Christianity (again), Satan has to be created by God because evil is merely a subversion of good, rather than an "equal and opposite force." Also, his falling makes sense because his sin - pride - is a purely spiritual sin, as evil as selflessness is good.

There's actually no word on rather a fallen angel can be redeemed (though the Bible makes it clear that God wants to see all humans brought back into His fold). But I like to believe that, if Satan REALLY felt bad and repented, even he would be accepted.

The thing is, Satan is so thoroughly corrupted by pride that he would never lay down his arms and surrender his war against God.

But our fate is no so certain. We CAN turn back to God, accept His gift of redemption, and become songs and daughters of God rather than just God's creations.


I think that the problem is that Christ teaches that we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. The idea makes sense if we love others as we love ourselves.

Sometimes, I do terrible, terrible things - but I still look after myself (feeding and sheltering myself) and I constantly hope that I can one day become better than I am, that I can rise above my selfish faults. I find my faults reprehensible, but I still love myself (and I am supposed to treat others the same way).

Christ loves us in the way we are to love others: He hates my sin but LOVES me, and He wants to see me cleansed of my sin.

Bubba

 

[Discoteque]

*delurk mode*

I just wanted to say that this is probably the most interesting thread (all 19 pages!) I've ever read on Interference. And so civil, too! Bama, Mike, Bubba, Whiteflag, I never needed to give my views, as you said them for me....

Really enjoyed learning new things that I never knew about so many other religions (even if the thread did veer off on Christianity a bit).

RavenStar, if you are truly *only* 14 going on 15, you are probably one of the most mature, self-possessed young persons I've ever come across...impressive.

U2 fans = some of the most interesting people around!

 

[adamswildhoney]

U2 fans = some of the most interesting people around!

I second that thought!

 

[RavenStar]

Bubba, that was very informative. I think I'm close to actually GETTING Christianity.

Discotheque, Thank you. It has been an interesting thread hasnt it?

 

[whiteflag]

RavenStar

Bubba, that was very informative. I think I'm close to actually GETTING Christianity.

WOW! WOW! WOW!

Like how often does this happen? In all my years of trying I have never heard these words come from a friend of mine from another religion. (I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise) You know what RavenStar? Short of someone saying they are converting, what you just said is what Christians would like to hear the most.

Like us, hate us, oppose us, you don't have to like us or be one of us. As long as someones opinion of my religion is fair and based on "getting" us to some degree I think we can get along just fine.

I think what most Christians dislike the most is people basing their opinions on misinformation about us. IMO that's about 98%
of non-Christians.

Thank you RavenStar for being fair enough to say what you said.

And congrats to Bubba for assisting in what, in my experience at least, is a true rarity!

 

[RavenStar]

I think I get Christianity I just don't get why people like it so much.

 

[whiteflag]

RavenStar,

In my experience, mature Christians who are truly knowledgable about their faith are the happiest, most joyful, and secure people I have ever known. That's why we like it so much.

I myself have been an atheist, and then a nominal Christian, then a Christian who believed some things but denied the most fantastic features of the religion, and now I'm at the point where I feel on fire with my faith. I believe it hook, line and sinker. So I have been through every phase, even one where a friend of mine said I was just an inch from being a Muslim! And I have never known before the happiness, joy and security that I know today.

For mature Christians, our faith goes beyond the mere belief and acceptance of religion. For us Jesus is a spiritual reality, as real for us as any material/physical thing. Many Christians will in fact say that they didn't choose to have faith in Jesus, but that Jesus chose them to have faith in Him. I am definitely in this category.

Of course, We also believe that Jesus does not force people who are dead-set against belief in Him and that neither should we attempt to do so. We believe He chooses people whose hearts and minds are open to all the possibilites.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

RavenStar,

You're 14 years old?! With your obvious maturity, I would have figured you were already in college.

Anyway...

I think that people put their faith in Christ because we honestly believe that He is the Son of God, that He DID overcome death, and that He offers us a second chance at a personal relationship with God - a relationship that will literally last forever.


There are, actually, quite a few things that Christianity has going against it. First, its moral demands are nothing less than perfection - read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) and your jaw will drop at Christ's expectations.

Second, we AREN'T expected to meet those demands on our own; Christ says that God will help us (that His help is the only thing that WILL help us meet His demands). I say that that is a disadvantage because it's completely contrary to human nature. We like to think we can do everything ourselves; we find it embarassing to ask for help. And I think we're all occasionally guilty in thinking that we can please God if we just do X, Y, and Z; that by keeping to some list, we'll earn time to ourselves.

The reality is, God wants US - our entire hearts, minds, bodies, and souls; in the end, nothing less will do.


But there IS something that Christianity offers: absolute hope. Christ says that through Him, we can be complete; we can be what God always intended us to be, and enjoy being in God's presence for all eternity.

And this ultimate gift overcomes EVERYTHING. No matter how bad we've been up to this very moment, God can still bring us to Him.

Look at Peter and Paul, two of Christ's earliest followers, and almost indisputedly His GREATEST servants. Peter, one of Jesus' closest companions, abandoned Him on the night of his trial - and denied he ever knew Jesus REPEATEDLY. But after the Resurrection, the cowardly Peter became the bold leader of the early Christian church. The entire Church today - Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, even us rebellious Protestants - can trace our roots back to him.

And Paul? His HOBBY was persecuting early Christians, holding people's coats as they stoned the "heretics" to death. After his conversion, he became one of the most courageous missionaries ever and the author of theological letters that millions still read today.

(Heck, look at the Old Testament: Moses was a exiled murderer - with an apparent speech impediment - when God recruited him to be His spokesman. After David became king, he had an affair with another man's wife and had the other man killed, and God still looked after him.)

If God the Father and God the Son can do SO much with such "damaged goods," He can still work miracles in our lives no matter how much we've resisted.

And God can not only save us from our own selfish selves, He can save us from the universal laws of entropy - from the inevitability of death.

JESUS CHRIST CONQUERED DEATH. He physically returned from the grave after an excruciatingly brutal death. He returned with a physical body, still bearing the scars of the cross, but apparently no longer hurt from the cross - He walked, talked, and ate as if nothing had happened. Compared to His power - nothing HAD happened.

Make no mistake, the cross was horrible - so horrible that the Romans had to invent a new word, "excruciating" (literally, "from the cross") to describe the pain it caused.

But Christ defeated it.

And He says He can conquer all death. Those loved ones that we've already lost? If their lives were placed in Christ's hands (and that MAY include some non-Christians, though I can't say for certain), they're just sleeping: we'll see them again, and the reunion will happier than we can imagine.

(Silly as it may sound, that's actually the reason I first became a Christian: so that I can be reunited with my grandmother, who passed away when I was eleven. I've sinced realized that Christianity includes MUCH more than that - particularly a personal relationship with God - but I still hold onto that first hope.)

Our reunion means that God will save our loved ones from death - but ALSO that we will be saved from death. That we have literally NOTHING to fear about the grave. The pain that may be part of the process is nothing compared to the eternal joy to follow - and death is not the end of things, but only the beginning.

Christ can conquer death for you and me. With faith in Him, we can LITERALLY laugh in the face of the ultimate calamity - and have joy regardless of the obstacles between us and eternity.

In fact, while we are not to speed death along, while we are to do God's work while we're here on Earth, we can look forward to death. There are some older Christians I've known that actually treat death as a homecoming - as THE homecoming.

That's the appeal.

 

[RavenStar]

Well, I'm actually 15. My birthday was a week ago.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Belated as this may be... Happy Birthday!

(And you STILL seem quite mature for your age.)

 

[RavenStar]

Aw, thanks.
Actually, I can be like a little kid. I still love making sand castles and browsing in the toy store.

 

[whiteflag]

RavenStar,

I sure hope you don't mind me continuing, but I feel hot on the trail of something that I have personally sought for months now ie a way to explain the perspective of mature(ing) Christians in non-Christian language.

I think our spiritual "language" is the greatest obstacle to undestanding between us and non-Christians. Too often we don't even realize we're "babbling" in it making no sense to anyone but ourselves.

Ok, I'm switching to another computer. I'll add on to this post in just a sec......

 

[whiteflag]

I've exceeded the time limit for editing....


So let me pick up where I left off.

RavenStar,

I sure hope you don't mind me continuing, but I feel hot on the trail of something that I have personally sought for months now ie a way to explain the perspective of mature(ing) Christians in non-Christian language.

I think our spiritual "language" is the greatest obstacle to undestanding between us and non-Christians. Too often we don't even realize we're "babbling" in it making no sense to anyone but ourselves.

Ok, I'm switching to another computer. I'll add on to this post in just a sec......

I guess what I have been trying to say ever since I rejoined this board is that there are two levels to Christianity which Christians normally experience (I have been saying this very badly)

The first level is the religion level comprised of our traditional teachings and the sources of those traditions such as The Bible and other writings. This is the practical, life application part of Christianity.

The second level is a profound daily experience with a Reality which is independent of us and even of our religion. This is the level which confirms for us that Jesus did die, did rise and did send the Holy Spirit to us just like He said He would because it happens to us. It is this level which is the source of unique almost inexplicable events and experiences which our theology attempts to describe and explain.

It is possible to choose the first level intellectually, to consciously accept it as a sensible system of living and worshipping God. All religions, wisdom traditions and philosophies are different versions of this first level because their believers accept them using their common sense.

But it is impossible to choose the second level which Christians experience. We have found that it instead chooses us. In our experience we come into direct contact with a Reality that is both separate and independent of us (not our imagination or a figment of belief) but which also consciously chooses to live in our hearts.

All other religions choose one or the other. They either believe in a totally separate active God or else they believe in a passive God inside us who is no different from us. But Christians come into daily communion with a Reality that is both ways not one or the other. (thanks Kingpin)

Therefore a Christians ultimate loyalty is not to our religion but to that independent Being who has in fact, in reality chosen to share Himself with us. We then choose to be loyal to our religious system because we believe that it best reflects our experience and best teaches others to know The Way.

For us then, Christianity is the religion which is most faithful to God because it is the most faithful to ALL of reality not just the portions of it which we we've decided make the most sense.

In this way, I guess you could think of Christianity as teaching how to access maximum reality.

 

[V Nura]

RavenStar,

In my experience, mature Christians who are truly knowledgable about their faith are the happiest, most joyful, and secure people I have ever known. That's why we like it so much.

erm...you mean your LIMITED experience I presume

 

[RavenStar]

I was thinking the same thing.