Opression of women by Islamic fundamentalists - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-06-2002, 11:05 AM   #1
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Normal Opression of women by Islamic fundamentalists

I hope this isn't too controversial and I don't know if it's been discussed before, but I was just thinking about this. I was at the grocery store and there was an Islamic woman, all bound up in a black cloak and a beige piece of material wrapped all around her head. I couldn't see her eyes, but she had to be able to see, she was pushing the shopping cart- 10 feet behind her husband, who was walking proudly ahead in western clothes. He paid for everything, of course she wouldn't be trusted with the money.

I have a question I wanted discussed. Why is this, and much worse opression and discrimination against women justified as part of their religion and culture? At one time or another, it has been somewhat a part of almost every religion and culture, but that's how things were in ancient times, and modern society has risen above that. Such behavior is considered unacceptable in most of the world, why are they alone allowed to continue? I pity those women
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Old 08-06-2002, 11:41 AM   #2
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Re: Opression of women by Islamic fundamentalists

>>Islamic fundamentalists

I can sense some amount of tautology here
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Old 08-06-2002, 11:54 AM   #3
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SIGH. Well I didn't know what to call them without pissing somebody off. If I just said "Islamic" somebody would say, "don't stereotype they're not all like that" so I wanted to distiguish in a term most people would understand, I suppose I blew it anyway. I still think the opressing certain members of the Islamic faith subject women to is so terrible that I'm really don't care if I do offend them. <-----them being only the ones I described. Some people really don't deserve to be mollycoddled. God knows they wouldn't do the same for you.

So, does anyone have an answer to the question?
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Old 08-06-2002, 12:20 PM   #4
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I really don't have an answer to your question...except from what I understand this veiling of women is mostly cultural and not religious. Things may be twisted around to make it part of the religion (in the American south in the old days there were some preachers who could twist the Scriptures around to make it look like segregation was ordained by God) and that is probably what the Islamic fundamentalists have done...taken something that is strictly cultural and forced it into their religion.

Everytime I see these women I think of the present Queen of Jordan...she is Palestinean...Muslem...and she doesn't wear a veil. She doesn't even wear a headscarf...I saw her in an interview recently wearing a t-shirt and jeans!! I have had many good friends tell me that here in the states for the most part the head covering is optional...if a woman wants to..fine...if not fine. The only equivilent I can think of in Christianity is some Christian women think its wrong for a woman to wear pants (they believe its wrong to wear 'men's clothing"...but it is HER decision. If a woman does not want to...fine...if she does...ok.

That really doesn't answer you question...its more a reflection on the same theme...


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Old 08-06-2002, 01:04 PM   #5
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Is Queen Noor still recognized as the Queen of Jordan (even after the death of King Hussein)? Don't forget she was American.
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Old 08-06-2002, 03:05 PM   #6
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I said the PRESENT Queen..the wife of the PRESENT King Abdulla, the son of the late King Hussein and Queen Noor's stepson.....the present Queen is a young Palestenian woman....sorry if that wasn't clear...and sorry that I don't remember her name!

I don't know what Queen Noor's title is now..I don't know if they have a 'Queen Mum' in Jodan!

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Old 08-07-2002, 11:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shine * Like* Stars*
SIGH. Well I didn't know what to call them without pissing somebody off. If I just said "Islamic" somebody would say, "don't stereotype they're not all like that" so I wanted to distiguish in a term most people would understand, I suppose I blew it anyway. I still think the opressing certain members of the Islamic faith subject women to is so terrible that I'm really don't care if I do offend them. <-----them being only the ones I described. Some people really don't deserve to be mollycoddled. God knows they wouldn't do the same for you.

So, does anyone have an answer to the question?
There are always 2 ways of telling things

Way 1 Fact 1: Not all muslims are terrorists
Way 2 Fact 2: Yes but most of the terrorists are muslims.
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Old 08-07-2002, 01:17 PM   #8
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This is an interesting topic. But I don't think it's fair to start the discussion on the basis that covering (wearing a veil) is inherently sexist and oppressive. I'm not Muslim so I can't truly speak as to what it's like, but I've heard many women talk about why they cover and why they believe their religion tells them to do so (and yes, it is a religious practice. The basis for it is lifted from the Qur'an). Instead of it oppressing them, they feel that covering frees them from being judged by their outer appearance and sexuality. It focuses attention on their minds and personalities instead of on their looks. I'm sure I'm not explaining this fully and I'm not even saying I agree with this. I'm just trying to explain the motivation for covering and show that it's not simply meant to oppress.

But of course many Muslim women are oppressed. Why is this allowed to continue? I really don't know. Sorry I don't have an answer to your actual question, but I just felt a couple things needed to be clarified.
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Old 08-07-2002, 01:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan
>>Islamic fundamentalists

I can sense some amount of tautology here
This comment makes no sense. Of course there are some Islamic fundamentalists, but are you honestly trying to imply that Islam is an inherently fundamentalist religion? All religions have their fanatics. It's easy to focus attention on these fanatics because of their extreme beliefs. But that doesn't make the entire religion a fanatical one.

Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan


There are always 2 ways of telling things

Way 1 Fact 1: Not all muslims are terrorists
Way 2 Fact 2: Yes but most of the terrorists are muslims.


Care to explain what you mean by this? I mean, you couldn't possibly be implying that Muslims have a prediliction towards terrorism, more than members of other religions. Because that would just be plain bigotry.
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Old 08-07-2002, 03:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hallelujah Here She Comes


Of course there are some Islamic fundamentalists, but are you honestly trying to imply that Islam is an inherently fundamentalist religion? All religions have their fanatics. It's easy to focus attention on these fanatics because of their extreme beliefs. But that doesn't make the entire religion a fanatical one.

I used the word some and you also seem to agree in your own words "there are some Islamic fundamentalists". So I dont see much conflict between you and me.


Quote:
Originally posted by Hallelujah Here She Comes

I mean, you couldn't possibly be implying that Muslims have a prediliction towards terrorism, more than members of other religions. Because that would just be plain bigotry.
Whether Muslims have predilection of becoming terrorist or not is not what I am worried about. I dont imply anything. I dont mean to imply anything. But on the other hand, I dont retract any of my statements for the simple reason that they are true. Most of the terrorists are indeed muslims.
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Old 08-07-2002, 06:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan



I used the word some and you also seem to agree in your own words "there are some Islamic fundamentalists". So I dont see much conflict between you and me.
Well, then I guess I misunderstood your use of the word "tautology." As far as I know, a tautology is equating two things that are identical, so that the equation is basically pointless, like saying 1 = 1. So when you said that the phrase "Islamic Fundamentalist" was a bit of a tautology, I interpreted that as you saying that "Islamic" and "Fundamentalist" are basically the same thing, which they are not. Conceding that there are indeed some Islamic fundamentalists doesn't mean I think being Islamic and being a fundamentalist are the one and the same. That's all I was trying to say. I guess I just don't know what you were trying to get at.

Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan

Whether Muslims have predilection of becoming terrorist or not is not what I am worried about. I dont imply anything. I dont mean to imply anything. But on the other hand, I dont retract any of my statements for the simple reason that they are true. Most of the terrorists are indeed muslims.
Most of what terrorists? Most of the 9-11 terrorists? Yes. Most of the terrorists in Israel? Yes. But most of the terrorists in Northern Ireland were Catholic. Most of the people who slaughtered the Tutsis in Rwanda were Hutus. But what's the point of pointing this out? I guess I don't understand the why what you posted if it didn't have any further implications. Maybe you could explain? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, I'm just trying to understand what you meant.
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Old 08-07-2002, 09:31 PM   #12
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I didn't mean just the head covering, it was just the head covering that brought the subject up to me. Hers was no 'veil' it looked more like a thick light brown burlap bag! It was 99 degrees outside! Add to that the fact that her clad for summer husband walked ahead of her, in the tradition that a woman must keep 10 paces to the rear of a man. In some places in Saudi Arabia, one of the most westernized Islamic nations, women may not eat in the same part of the resturaunt as a man!! Now that is just as bad as the white/black tables before desegregation in the US! Disgraceful! I have also seen reports ( I am very into the news and educational cable channels) that showed forced female circumcision (which is internal) and the virtual sewing up of the vaginal opening, at an early age, many times leading to infection and even death. Women in many regions are not allowed to choose their husband, and some have been stoned by a male relative as a matter of honor to the family if she 'strays.' The forced garments, no driving, no money, no job, no vote, all these things are happening to women in the 21st century and that is unacceptable. I just don't see how justifying it as culture or religion still works for them now in this day and age after all the freedoms women and minorities have gained in all other societies. Discrimination is WRONG and there is no excuse.
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Old 08-07-2002, 10:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shine * Like* Stars*
In some places in Saudi Arabia, one of the most westernized Islamic nations,
Saudi Arabia may traditionally be "pro-Western" in diplomatic affairs, but its culture is far from being among the "most westernized" of "Islamic nations." Perhaps the "most westernized" in the region we are discussing would be Jordan, Syria or Turkey in that they do not have the strictest of cultural and religious laws and allow women to live in a "western" lifestyls, but Saudi Arabia has Wahabi rule, a harsh theocratic code that is closed to "western" influences.

Aside from that, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, AcrobatMan.

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Old 08-08-2002, 03:29 AM   #14
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I cant really comment on the theory behind all the head gear etc in their own countries better than anyone else here, but over the last few years I have become friends with a muslim woman here in Australia. She was born here but every now and then we discuss her religion and these kind of things. I made a comment one day about the traditions of their culture still remaining strong when they immigrate to places like here, and from your post I guess america is no different. She made an interesting comment to that specifically about head dress etc and said that even though they may move and even relax some of the traditions, for a woman who has spent the last 25 years or whatever of her life with her face covered is not at ease with suddenly walking around in a western country completely bare faced.
I guess it equates to one of us suddenly joining a nudist camp and whipping off our tops. It would take some getting used to.

I think the point I'm trying to make is, that perhaps times are changing, but it has to be done at a pace the individual is comfortable with. I hope I'm not implying you made any assumptions about this couple you saw because I know you weren't. Its just that what my friend told me opened my eyes a lot more to this transplanting of culture to a basically westernised environment. It got me thinking lol!
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Old 08-08-2002, 08:03 AM   #15
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I think that is true of any culture when people come to the west....someone could come here from Asia and it will be several generations before the family is truly 'westernized'. The first immigrants will hold on to customs and traditions that had in the 'old country'...so I would assume Muslems would be no different..

Hallelujah...when I spoke and have listened to Muslem women...they have said its the idea of modesty that is lifted from the Koran...not specific coverings. I think the different coverings vary from culture to culture...one woman honestly believed all she needed for 'modesty' was a pair of dark sunglasses so men would not have to look her in the eyes...to her that was modesty enough...where I used to work (in a school system) a Muslem family lived there...and the women kept their arms and legs covered...but wore no head covering whatsoever. I think its the modesty that is important to them..
But then again...I may have misinterpreted...or we could all be talking to people from different cultures and different schools of interpretations...its like Christianity...there are differences ...

But I don't think this is really what Shine *Like* Stars* wants to discuss...I think she wants to delve more into that kind of mentality that makes men agree with this kind of thing...

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