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Old 06-20-2005, 07:28 PM   #76
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I often wonder how easy it is to "support" a war when it is not your ass on the line or your wife being raped at home or your children being shot at. Because so many times I see, "war is a necessity" usually stated by people who have never lived war, never experienced it in their homes and their personal lives.

From a civilian point of view, I can tell you it all sounds very beautiful and theoretical. But you know what, it's the civilian women and children who are never asked whether they "support" this war or feel it is a "necessity", they do not have any choice either way about their heads being blown off, for good or for evil or for anything in between.

For personal reasons, I will always side with them. They will lose every single time, such is life.

I really wonder what the support for the war would be if it were in your back yard, if you didn't see the sun in days, if you had nothing to eat, if you were left literally with the clothes on your back, if you lost your businesses, your livelihoods, your brothers, sisters, cousins, your schools demolished, your sleep patterns destroyed, and so on.

It's difficult for me to say whose view is more right here.
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Old 06-20-2005, 07:40 PM   #77
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Originally posted by anitram
I often wonder how easy it is to "support" a war when it is not your ass on the line or your wife being raped at home or your children being shot at. Because so many times I see, "war is a necessity" usually stated by people who have never lived war, never experienced it in their homes and their personal lives.

I really wonder what the support for the war would be if it were in your back yard, if you didn't see the sun in days, if you had nothing to eat, if you were left literally with the clothes on your back, if you lost your businesses, your livelihoods, your brothers, sisters, cousins, your schools demolished, your sleep patterns destroyed, and so on.

Like I said, I don't support this war, but I don't believe it's my place to judge whether someone's support is or isn't genuine just because they are fortunate enough not to have the experience of being a civilian in the middle of the war. I think that's a little dangerous b/c then people can start saying the same thing about lots of things....I mean, this is a rediculous arguement but still along the same lines...how can someone support abortion if they've never had to choose between keeping their baby or literally having it ripped to shreds? I dunno, I just feel it's a little off to say someone's opinion can't be genuine just b/c they haven't had the experience themselves.
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Old 06-20-2005, 07:42 PM   #78
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm well aware of his posts, I'm also well aware of your sometimes passive agressive attacks.
Have you noticed that I never throw the first punch?
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Old 06-20-2005, 07:43 PM   #79
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Originally posted by Irvine511

could it be that the maintenance of an elite class of people is predicated upon the maintenance of a permanent underclass?
ah.

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Old 06-20-2005, 07:46 PM   #80
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

I dunno, I just feel it's a little off to say someone's opinion can't be genuine just b/c they haven't had the experience themselves.
That´s not what anitram said. She said she feels a lot of people would feel different about war if they knew it first-hand.
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Old 06-20-2005, 07:50 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I often wonder how easy it is to "support" a war when it is not your ass on the line or your wife being raped at home or your children being shot at. Because so many times I see, "war is a necessity" usually stated by people who have never lived war, never experienced it in their homes and their personal lives.
between.


Please don't you know we use 'Smart bombs" and "bunker buster bombs"

and sometimes a "daisy cutter bombs"
yes, there are evil flowers.


We never use "Baby killer bombs" or "women and children killer bombs" so no babies, women and children have died in Iraq.

and I can state for a fact the are no babies locked up at GITMO!
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Old 06-20-2005, 07:57 PM   #82
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Comparing people to Nazi's does a disservice to the victims of Nazism.
Agreed.
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:02 PM   #83
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Originally posted by melon


You can't be "pro-life" and "pro-death" in the same breath, no matter how many ministers say otherwise.

What pisses me off about Christianity the most is that it seems to be all "yang" and no "yin." That is, if the "yang" screams "ABORTION IS WRONG!" then we'll search for hundreds of Bible passages to support it. But when the "yin" points out the hypocrisy of being "pro-life" and "pro-death (penalty)" simultaneously, no one listens and all the Bible passages that would support that are ignored. Forget that Jesus refused to stone the adulterous woman, as prescribed by Mosaic Law. Forget that Jesus said "Turn the other cheek" and "Love one another." Oh no. Jesus must be pro-death penalty, and I'm sure He cheered on His crucifixion! I mean, talk about the paradoxes of all paradoxes:

Jesus, an innocent man, gets put to death and Christians support the death penalty.
Brilliant post. Brilliant.

I am a Christian. And I support Melon´s position wholeheartedly.
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:49 PM   #84
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Have you noticed that I never throw the first punch?
Well sometimes they are subtle but they are first.
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:57 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I often wonder how easy it is to "support" a war when it is not your ass on the line or your wife being raped at home or your children being shot at. Because so many times I see, "war is a necessity" usually stated by people who have never lived war, never experienced it in their homes and their personal lives.

From a civilian point of view, I can tell you it all sounds very beautiful and theoretical. But you know what, it's the civilian women and children who are never asked whether they "support" this war or feel it is a "necessity", they do not have any choice either way about their heads being blown off, for good or for evil or for anything in between.

For personal reasons, I will always side with them. They will lose every single time, such is life.

I really wonder what the support for the war would be if it were in your back yard, if you didn't see the sun in days, if you had nothing to eat, if you were left literally with the clothes on your back, if you lost your businesses, your livelihoods, your brothers, sisters, cousins, your schools demolished, your sleep patterns destroyed, and so on.

It's difficult for me to say whose view is more right here.


***

If you ask why you (or your eligible offspring) should join up if you support the war...well, because I find it very convenient to be an armchair general. And I would very much like to see some stats on these "College Republicans"--how many are in, say, ROTC, or, hell, if any of them have any kind of Peace Corps or other national service plans. I am sure some do, but I'd be willing to bet a few donuts that most do not.

And I'm sorry, but I have zero (read: zero) respect for the well-heeled children of the Republic who will gladly send the children of those less fortunate themselves off to war, but would shudder at the thought of even one of their capped teeth being exposed to the horrors of war. And I'll tell you what--if, as the original website suggested, the military recruiters do show up at this convention, and they do get a goodly number of signups, well, by gosh, I'll eat my hat.

But I somehow don't see that happening.

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Old 06-20-2005, 09:45 PM   #86
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My view of it would definitely be different if I had had a war thrust upon me and have my family members killed in it; likewise I would probably have a particular view if it was my family who was snatched away in the middle of the night and executed by the secret police. There are a lot of things coming out of Iraq from the pictures of that young Iraqi girl splattered with blood after the family car was shot up at a checkpoint at night to the stories of regular people and the scars both physical and emotional of living in Baathist Iraq and they are both shocking and brutal.

I see a lot of condemnation of the war which is fine, principled and well intentioned position. But I see very few solutions for the problem posed by Saddam.

26,000 dead Iraqi civilians from combat not including disease and malnutrition, a long term US commitment in rebuilding the country, some serious strategic blunders (i.e. not going into Fallujah in April 2004), over 1,700 US soldiers killed some 13,000 wounded, radical Islamists waging a terror war against Iraqi's, sabotage of poor infrastructure has allowed disease to spread in many areas and the electricity grid is only improving slowly. A heavy price for a modern war; but one that has removed the persistent threat posed by Saddam Hussein and WMD, that has liberated millions of Iraqi's from tyranny, that has like a honey pot attracted many Jihadists and sent them too an early grave and no doubt tied up resources and expertise of the terror networks, brought about some positive changes in the region inspiring the Arab street to begin the road to democratic change (the cedar revolution from Jumblatts comments seems to stem from this), brought about Iraqi elections which were a historic event and one that will hopefully be repeated consistenly. There has not been a disintegration of the country along ethnic lines leading to an all out civil war, the predictions of a massive exodus of refugees did not eventuate and there has been a net influx into Iraq as refugees living in camps in neighbouring countries could return home.

We can never truly know what would have happened if war did not occur and it would be unfair to speculate too much. We may acknowledge that if the Baathists were still in power then Iraqis would still be living in a totallitarian state without a free press or freedom of speech, they also would suffer opression at the hands of the state as they were pre-war; tens of thousands murdered by the regime each year is no small number but that would have continued; I doubt that the big killing fields of the 1980's and early 1990's would be repeated but the business as usual bleeding of the populus could go ahead. We do know that all through the 1990's while there were sanctions on Iraq the Iraqi people were dying in enourmous numbers from hunger and disease, we also know now that the baathists deliberately setup this suffering by manipulating the oil for food program for their own political and economic gain; waging war against the Iraqi people by denying them food and medicine while blaming all this death on the west from it's sanctions. These casualties would have continued at their pre-war levels if sanctions remained in place. If they were removed then the containment of the regime would cease and aquistion of WMD would be a near certainty. The conclusions of inspectors was that the regime was waiting for sanctions to be lifted before making their move and given Irans advanced state by now (mid 2005) Iraq would be meeting that challenge and match Iran.
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Old 06-20-2005, 09:54 PM   #87
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If that's the criteria you go by, then keep a watch out for him. he has a habit of putting the blame for everything on America.
Bollocks, you talk shit., I don`t blaim america in general, only bible fuckers like you.
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Old 06-20-2005, 09:58 PM   #88
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Yes, A, but you're avoiding my point: if this war was so necessary, so virtuous and so honorable, why are the people (or their offspring) who were in the best position to support it politically and financially somehow in the worst position to supply it with fresh humanpower?
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Old 06-20-2005, 09:58 PM   #89
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i did catch the bait ,..fuck.
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Old 06-20-2005, 10:17 PM   #90
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Yes, A, but you're avoiding my point: if this war was so necessary, so virtuous and so honorable, why are the people (or their offspring) who were in the best position to support it politically and financially somehow in the worst position to supply it with fresh humanpower?
From this article about the children of congressmen who are in or could be called to serve in Iraq it seems that they are overrepresented in the millitary when compared to the general population.

Dread gave some anecdotal evidence of young Republicans stepping up and serving their country. It seems as if there is this Vietnam ere mentality about the millitary where it is only made up of the poor and that they are victims of the system who have no choice whatsoever even though it is clear that it has changed in it's force structure. A volunteer millitary is comprised of citizens or permanent resident aliens who choose to serve their country; this is much different than a draft or mandatory service and it has proven itself as a more effective system.
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