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Old 06-18-2005, 04:21 PM   #16
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
But melon, that was part of the issue. Neuro-specialists were not completely in agreement to the theory of "persistent vegetable state".
Yes, they were. It's just that if you're determined to find a minority dissenter, you'll find one, most certainly. Every credible medical source said she was in a persistent vegetative state and even the autopsy made it clear.

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Old 06-18-2005, 04:24 PM   #17
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melon, there were two "credible" neuro-surgeons that disagreed.

And the autopsy doesn't mean a hill of beans to the motivation of we who wanted to keep her om the feeding tube - it of course was not available until after she was dead.
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:29 PM   #18
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and there are (insert number here) credible scientists that say the earth is 6000 years (whatever conforms to their creation belief) old.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:03 PM   #19
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


(1)Bogus.
(2)Bogus.
(3)Bogus.
(4)Bogus.
(5)Bogus.
(6)Bogus.
(7)Bogus.

If you'd like, I can back up every single "bogus" I have written.

The first sentence of my second paragraph made it clear that I considered the negative brand of Christianity to be practiced by a minority of Christians. Unfortunately, they are right now the loudest group of Christians. While Christ certainly dealt with the sins often condemned by this minority, he dealt with them mercifully. ("He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone...Did no one condemn you. Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." He dealt much harsher with hypocrisy (See Matthew 23) and intolerance. "Judge not lest you be judged yourselves. For in the way you judge, you will be judged and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"

While this vocal minority condemns any number of sins, the "red words" gave two commandments.

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole law and the Prophets."

I'd be interested in hearing each of your backups on your boguses as refers to this minority of misanthropes who speak with such a loud and condemning voice only. Because like it or not, they are now the loudest voice of Christianity and they are becoming the basis on which much Christianity is judged. I did not judge all of Christianity by my comments. I actually think that the majority of people in this country who call themselves Christians are probably lukewarm. And another minority practice fully (or as fully as they can) the words of Christ. I've placed you in neither the negative (totally) or the lukewarm of these categories, 80's.

And you would be right to tell me I am judging. But I do not call myself a Christian. I knew long ago I'd fall short of those commandments and if there is a God, I expect fully to be judged based on my judgments.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:10 PM   #20
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
For instance, when he says "when, on television, we see a person in a persistent vegetative state, one who will never recover, we believe that allowing the natural and merciful end to her ordeal is more loving than imposing government power to keep her hooked up to a feeding tube" he casts in a negative light those us on the other side of the issue, saying that it's all about power for us, rather than what it really was for most of us. And what was it really about for most of us? It was about life; We saw signs that we interpreted as Schiavo being more lucid than what some said; we saw our plight as protecting Terri against a husband who, although having left Terri years ago and shacking up with a woman and having 3 kids by her, expected us to have faith in his word that Terri had said she's want to have feeding stopped, even though he couldn't provide a scrap of proof towards that end. So, to say that those of us who wanted the feeding tube to stay in wanted thus for reasons of power, is a gross misinterpretation, and he should be ashamed of himself.
um, did ya check out the autopsy results?

you people -- and i say that because you said "we" -- saw what you wanted to see, not what was there.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:11 PM   #21
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
And the autopsy doesn't mean a hill of beans to the motivation of we who wanted to keep her om the feeding tube


niether do doctors or courts, apparently.

yes, blind faith and wishful thinking before science.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:17 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Irvine511


um, did ya check out the autopsy results?

you people -- and i say that because you said "we" -- saw what you wanted to see, not what was there.
Irvine, I was plainly speaking about Danforth judging the motivation of we who wanted to keep her on the feeding tube, and thus, as I said to melon, the autopsy results don't figure in to the issue of the motivation of those who wanted to keep her on the feeding tube because, guess what - the autopsy was only done after she was dead.

What we saw was a woman who followed a balloon with here eyes when asked to follow a balloon with her eyes, and a woman whose face lit up and would smile when her mother would talk to her.

But since we're throwing out "you people"s here, why were "you people" so quick to believe the word of a man who shacked up with another woman and had 3 kids with her and yet refused to divorce his wife? Real loving and credible man, there.
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Old 06-18-2005, 05:21 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511




niether do doctors or courts, apparently.
Concerning doctors, we put our trust in 2 neuro-specialists who said she wasn't a vegetable. Since the question of "perssistent vegetative state" was in question, we erred on the side of life and hope.

Need I remind you that Michael Schiavo didn't allow therapy on Terri after 91 or 92?

And why should we put our trust in courts in reference to a medical issue?

These same courts believed a man who damaged his own credibility by cheating on his wife and having 3 kids by another woman when he said that Terri had told him she wouldn't have wanted to remain on a feeding tube, even though he had not one shred of proof. That doesn't exactly inspire trust in those courts.
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:27 PM   #24
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Originally posted by melon
I don't think anyone would say:

"Even if I have no brain left, I want to be hooked up to a feeding tube and be left a vegetable for 15 years."

Melon
I think that they can and could expressly put their wishes in writing and ensure that their family abides by it.
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:28 PM   #25
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and there are (insert number here) credible scientists that say the earth is 6000 years (whatever conforms to their creation belief) old.
Just be sure that they are mostly engineers and people who have nothing to do with the fields of geology, biology or cosmology.
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Old 06-18-2005, 07:07 PM   #26
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The first sentence of my second paragraph made it clear that I considered the negative brand of Christianity to be practiced by a minority of Christians.
The very first thing you said was that Christianity had descended "from a really revolutionary message to a philosophy that no longer strives to be like Christ but lies content in the smug assumption that God is just like them--nationalistic, flagwaving, sexphobic, humorless, approving of aggression, disapproving of science, concerned with life only in the womb or in a vegetative state, wanting a whole of humanity that thinks alike. I guess I'd like a religion to that didn't demand anything of me except follow a few rules, attend a few prayer sessions and quote the Biblical text to support everything I am, while conveniently ignoring the text that challenges everything I'm not"

Despite the fact that you said that a minority of Christians act that way, the fact remains that you said that Christianity had become all those bad things. My "bogus"es were in reference to that statement alone. Christianity is still the same as it has always been; some Christians and others who call themselves Christians may act that way, but Christianity itself is still the same as it has been from the beginning.

The problem may be in what we mean when we say "Christianity". I am not talking about the "people" of Christianity...I am talking about the belief system itself.
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Old 06-18-2005, 07:50 PM   #27
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I am not talking about the "people" of Christianity...I am talking about the belief system itself.
But isn't that the problem? How do you define the belief system outside of the people? Is there a universal definition of the belief system? You may say it's the Bible, others may say it's still written by man. Even some of the most conservative Christians will recognise that Genesis is analogy and others say we take it at face value, the problem is there is no universal defintion, if there were we wouldn't have so many denominations.
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Old 06-18-2005, 08:29 PM   #28
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But isn't that the problem? How do you define the belief system outside of the people? Is there a universal definition of the belief system? You may say it's the Bible, others may say it's still written by man. Even some of the most conservative Christians will recognise that Genesis is analogy and others say we take it at face value, the problem is there is no universal defintion, if there were we wouldn't have so many denominations.
The basic belief in Christianity, that Christ died upon the cross to save mankind from their sins, and that it is by grace are we saved, not by works, is recognized by every Christian denomination. There are differences in doctrine amongst denominations, but in reference to core beliefs, we all believe the same.

The way I define the beliefe system "outside the people" is to refer to the book of Christianity, the Bible itself. The core belief sytem or "creed' of Christianity is there in black and white for all to see.
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Old 06-18-2005, 08:41 PM   #29
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


The basic belief in Christianity, that Christ died upon the cross to save mankind from their sins, and that it is by grace are we saved, not by works, is recognized by every Christian denomination. There are differences in doctrine amongst denominations, but in reference to core beliefs, we all believe the same.
I agree with this, but that being said there are still huge differences in what this means. But there are differences on how "grace" is defined, is it truly mankind? Or just those that claim Christianity, and what does it mean to claim Christianity? See what I mean there, is a lot of gray that will never be defined universally.


Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

The way I define the beliefe system "outside the people" is to refer to the book of Christianity, the Bible itself. The core belief sytem or "creed' of Christianity is there in black and white for all to see.
You say it's in black and white, but the truth is, it's not. There's a lot of red in mine, which happens to be my favorite part. There are several different interpretations, people confuse the portions that are man's word and Christ's word all the time, and to be honest how do we know for 100% which scripts were included and which weren't?
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Old 06-18-2005, 09:02 PM   #30
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

These same courts believed a man who damaged his own credibility by cheating on his wife and having 3 kids by another woman
Oh, don't worry.

Jebby is on the matter. He now wants an investigation to determine whether Schiavo is responsible for the outcome of Terri's collapse because he may not have called the ambulance right away.

There is no end to this.
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