Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

[digitize]

The killer grew up in a highly dysfunctional home environment. Thirty nine calls to the police over the last however many years. His Mom was a single parent, when she died last November from the flu four people showed up to her funeral. He was said to be distraught over that fact, and her death. Obviously plenty of people grow up in dysfunctional families(I did) and don't commit mass murder. I feel no sympathy for him, but his life circumstances still make me sad. It's also sad to me to think that perhaps even one person could have made a difference in his life to the extent that he wouldn't have become a mass murderer.



Common sense gun control to me means no regular citizen needs an AR 15 or similar weapon. And no troubled mentally ill person should have one, or any guns in my opinion. All these politicians take money from the NRA, even Democrats. I for one am sickened beyond words by endless "discussion" about gun control while kids and adults are slaughtered.



There also are obviously issues going on with some boys, and men, that need serious consideration and intervention. Teenage girls are not going on school shooting rampages. That's already been mentioned here, and it's not anti-male. Just a fact.

Absolutely true indeed.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Sadly, "Everytown for Gun Safety" is responsible for pushing the fake "18 School Shootings in 2018" story that was repeated and retweeted endlessly, including by news organisations that later had to retract it.

As I've said many times in this thread, a big part of the problem is that no one is being honest about the problem, or solutions. And the terms of the debate are largely based on lies.

It's a hell of a country we live in when we can decide what qualifies as a school shooting or not based on whether or not anyone was killed.

They define their statistics as this

Everytown explains on its website that it defines a school shooting as “any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds.”

So the stats aren't fake, by that definition. But yes, nitpicking over the exact definition of a school shooting is really what we need to focus on.

But hey, thanks again for finding something to be contrarian guy about.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Yeah I was going to say the same thing.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

It's a hell of a country we live in when we can decide what qualifies as a school shooting it not based on whether or not anyone was killed.

They define their statistics as this


So the stats aren't fake, by that definition. But yes, nitpicking over the exact definition of a school shooting is really what we need to focus on.

But hey, thanks again for finding something to be contrarian guy about.

Because an accidental discharge or suicide on school owned property is exactly the same thing as a massacre of 17 students and teachers. Give me a break.

Probably 99 percent of people who initially shared and repeated that "statistic" (including myself to students and in discussions to colleagues) didn't realize what that organization did with their stat. Lesson learned.

Their loose redefinition backfired by distracting from the issue at hand- school shootings - that need to be dealt with. People don't like to be mislead and it is absolutely asinine when the truth of the situation is horrible enough.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Because an accidental discharge or suicide on school owned property is exactly the same thing as a massacre of 17 students and teachers. Give me a break.

Probably 99 percent of people who initially shared and repeated that "statistic" (including myself to students and in discussions to colleagues) didn't realize what that organization did with their stat. Lesson learned.

Their loose redefinition backfired by distracting from the issue at hand- school shootings - that need to be dealt with. People don't like to be mislead and it is absolutely asinine when the truth of the situation is horrible enough.

So just the regular ole gun going off at a school that doesn't kill anyone is just hunky dory. Got it.

God bless America, the most fucked up country on earth.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I find bending of the truth to be deceptive and annoying. But in this case I'm really curious why anyone feels there's some sort of argument to be had or discussion to be had. Like, as though that statistic is an argumentative piece. Like, you've lost trust in the integrity of the debate. Maybe school shootings aren't as deadly as "they" say!

 

[BEAL]

We’ve had this talk over and over.

The best solution is to repeal the 2nd. Until that happens, there will never be any regulation or laws over guns. Not with this Supreme Court.

Doesn’t mean we give up, but i feel like our goal should be higher than “ban AR15”

 

[cobl04]

It's stunning how you can just get away with such blatant hypocrisy. The brave new world where consequences seemingly don't exist. I do wonder sometimes what would have happened had the Weinstein movement begun prior to the Billy Bush tape.

 

[Dfit00]

I wonder why this kid did not commit suicide after the attack like most shooters do afterwards.

Very hysterical is also the fact that he left everything behind and escaped the school by blending with the crowds of fleeing students, went to a Subway within a Wal Mart right next to the school to buy a drink, then onto a McDonald's and then kept walking in the neighborhood until he got arrested.

 

[Mac_Fly]

I just finished a visit with a right wing Republican pro gun friend of mine tonight who said he has now decided that it's time to ban assault weapons.

I was floored.

I hope he is an indication of what's to come.

It's time.

It's overdue.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I wonder why this kid did not commit suicide after the attack like most shooters do afterwards.

Very hysterical is also the fact that he left everything behind and escaped the school by blending with the crowds of fleeing students, went to a Subway within a Wal Mart right next to the school to buy a drink, then onto a McDonald's and then kept walking in the neighborhood until he got arrested.

I'm not sure why it's hysterical. Amid panic and chaos, it's easy for everyone to lose track of who is doing the shooting and who is doing the running.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

So just the regular ole gun going off at a school that doesn't kill anyone is just hunky dory. Got it.

God bless America, the most fucked up country on earth.

Look at some of the facts before making such ignorant statements.

One egregious example of deception from the "18 school shootings so far in 2018“ "stat" is the fact that one of those *shootings was a suicide in a parked car at a school that had been closed for 7 months.

The actual shootings that have taken place have been horrible enough without deception and conflating suicides, accidental discharges and actual shootings. All it does, when discovered, is detract from the actual issue at hand.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

If you let it detract from the actual issue at hand.

 

[corianderstem]

I understand and agree that it’s important to have the facts right, but this “well, actually” bullshit about the number of “school shootings” is distracting from the fact that another 17 kids are dead in yet another preventable tragedy, and people are fed up.

 

[cobl04]

Look at some of the facts before making such ignorant statements.

One egregious example of deception from the "18 school shootings so far in 2018“ "stat" is the fact that one of those *shootings was a suicide in a parked car at a school that had been closed for 7 months.

The actual shootings that have taken place have been horrible enough without deception and conflating suicides, accidental discharges and actual shootings. All it does, when discovered, is detract from the actual issue at hand.

“The left are slightly exaggerating figures and therefore we should be outraged about that and not do anything about our gun laws”

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

“The left are slightly exaggerating figures and therefore we should be outraged about that and not do anything about our gun laws”

Stop being so ignorant

 

[Nick66]

“The left are slightly exaggerating figures and therefore we should be outraged about that and not do anything about our gun laws”

-Said exactly no one.

Cobbler, quotes are for when you’re quoting someone.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Watching kids who survived in FL on Face The Nation. They make more sense than adults. Smart kids, so well spoken. They say adults have let them down and sadly they are 100 % correct.

They're organizing marches. So proud of them.

 

[anitram]

I think the only positive thing that may come of this shooting (because let's face it nothing will change legislatively) is that the "thoughts and prayers" has been thoroughly mocked and exposed for the idiotic platitude that it always was. I'm expecting the Republicans will have to come up with some sort of new formulation going forward.

 

[Iggy Fizz]

Stop being so ignorant

I have donated to Every Town in the past and will do so again. But there is a point to be made about getting your data and stats accurate, because in our toxic culture, if you get it wrong then you are enabling the critics. Sadly, these pro-gun maniacs do not care about facts, or the culture, or their country despite what they say. They only care about where they can aim their hatred - for Hillary, Liberals, Dems in general. Anything that does not comport to what they hear from Hannity or Rush or Drudge.

So they need to get it right, like it or not. Whether it's been 18 or 8, or 1. Time's up.

 

[Nick66]

Those Parkland kids are a lot more articulate and involved than I was at that age. When I was 16 I was more interested in trying get laid and look like Bono.

Anyway, sucks that they have to worry about this crap at their age. I hope all the politicians they're going to meet over the next few months don't lie to them too bad.

 

[cobl04]

It does feel different to previous shootings. It's mega impressive watching them make their voices heard. I love the shit out of it. And they're doing it without fence-sitting or not-all-men-ing or taking exaggerated offence at a forum post.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

18 and 14 year old brothers

 

[digitize]

18 and 14 year old brothers



View attachment 11792

That’s so senselessly sad.

It’s completely unbelievable to me that anyone could believe that this is reasonable collateral damage for the affording civilians the privilege to own assault rifles. Absolutely maddening. This is one pretty rare issue where I genuinely don’t see a reasonable “other side”.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

They did survive, the teacher died protecting his students. No 14 year old should ever be typing texts like those. It hurts so much to even look at that.

 

[Nick66]

It’s completely unbelievable to me that anyone could believe that this is reasonable collateral damage for the affording civilians the privilege to own assault rifles.

You could certainly pass a new assault weapons ban (and I believe they should) that would be Constitutional, in my opinion. I just don't see why these are things civilians need to own. You sure don't need them for self-defence or hunting.

This is one pretty rare issue where I genuinely don’t see a reasonable “other side”.

While I don't necessarily agree them, I can certainly see the arguments the "other side" (i.e. owners of assault weapons and those who believe in the right to own them) would make.

First, they'd tell you that owning their assault weapon is a right, not a privilege. I disagree with this, I think even post Heller that you can regulate assault weapons, but that's the first argument their side would make.

They'd also point out that the vast, vast majority of gun violence in the US is carried out by hand guns, not assault weapons, and that in fact the number of homicides carried out by rifles of all kinds is statistically insignificant. They'd point out that most (if not all) of the mass shootings that have occurred in recent history would not have been prevented by any version of a serious assault weapons ban that's been proposed. They'd point out that the deadliest school shooting in American history (VA Tech) was done with hand guns. They'd point out that most mass shootings are planned weeks or months in advance, and someone doing such careful planning can get ahold of a weapon if they want, no matter what the laws.

They'd say, correctly, that the overwhelming majority of assault weapons owners are law abiding, and of the millions and millions of assault weapons that are out there, only a handful have been used in the commission of a crime. So why, they'd ask, are you going after assault weapons and not handguns, when the latter are the ones doing almost all the killing? They'd ask if you want to solve the problem, why are you proposing things that won't solve the problem?

As I said, I'm not saying I agree with all this. I'm putting that in bold because someone will come along and inevitably say "why do you support school shootings" or similar rubbish (not saying you, I know you're not prone to irrational outbursts Dig). I can make all the arguments on the gun control side also. In fact I don't think there's anything in Heller that prevents a new assault weapons ban. I also think there are other things you can do post-Heller that are still Constitutional....things like fixing the background check system, and gun violence protective orders, something most people have never heard of but a few states have tried that might stop at least the unstable from purchasing a gun (legally, anyway). And yes, an assault weapons ban, by all means.

I don't think your Second Amendment is worth killing or dying for. I think you should repeal it and get rid of most of the guns. But the reality is, in a post-Heller world, where the SCOTUS has said that owning a gun in an individual right protected under the Constitution, there's only so much you can do. That doesn't mean you don't do it. But I think pols should be honest with Americans about the limits to what can be done legislatively, starting with the Parkland survivors.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

I understand and agree that it’s important to have the facts right, but this “well, actually” bullshit about the number of “school shootings” is distracting from the fact that another 17 kids are dead in yet another preventable tragedy, and people are fed up.

I don't think you can discount the impact of "fake" numbers on those middle ground fence sitters (the worst) that you need to get anything done in this country. If you give someone who is starting to weaken any reason to believe things are hyperbole, you can lose them.

It's like the 1 in 100 concept in customer service (though it is more like 1000). A customer has 99 good encounters, one bad, and reacts to the bad as if it is the reality. We HAVE to be accurate in this debate...the facts are bad enough. No, a kid killing himself in a closed school lot, or even in an open school lot (happened when I was in high school) should not be in this particular debate. Mental health of kids and gun access...all feed into that.

But this is the social media war. Welcome to it. The bots and the Russians used it to great effect. Mostly with fake news, but they didn't get called out on it by the right people. Social media wins these days...these kids are fucking heroes for what they are doing, both the live tweeting and the refusal to back down to politician lies and threats and memes diminishing their very existence. But we have to be accurate. The correct/righteous always has to have their shit correct, so no one can be distracted.

The meme is a stupid one and inaccurate and does a disservice to the groundswell. The fact that we are talking about it? Doesn't that reflect what will happen in real life, but more?

This isn't a black/white world. We can be properly focused on the issue at hand, getting some work done to stop these shootings, while also pointing out that meme was cringeworthy for what it included under the title it used.

 

[Danny Boy]

Fuck bumpstock bans. A useless token gesture.

Has a bumpstock ever even been used in a school shooting?

 

[Hewson]

Fuck bumpstock bans. A useless token gesture.

Has a bumpstock ever even been used in a school shooting?

They were used in Vegas.

 

[Danny Boy]

I realize that, but I don't think it does anything to address the real problem, which is how easy it is for a psychopath to get a gun.