ongoing mass shootings thread

[Pearl]

restricting access to guns reduces gun crime. there is no getting around that.

:Yes:
It worked for Britain and I believe Australia.

 

[nbcrusader]

if Adam Lanza's mother hadn't been in possession of a Bushmaster M17S, a semi-automatic, more kids would be starting the 2nd grade this fall in Newtown, CT.

False. A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.

restricting access to guns reduces gun crime. there is no getting around that.

The City of Chicago has no gun shops and some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. Yet, Chicago is now the murder capital of the US. People who want to commit a crime with a gun will find a gun. The person is the problem. Taking away the rights of the many to possibly hinder the actions of the few is no solution.

 

[Irvine511]

False. A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.

wrong. it is precisely his mother's owning of a semiautomatic that created this event. to say otherwise is wishful thinking and an excuse gun nuts tell themselves. Adam Lanza, mentally unstable and living with his mother, would not have procured a semi-automatic himself. if his mother hadn't been, herself, a gun nut, and in possession of semiautomatics, perhaps some of these children would be alive today:

Charlotte Bacon
Daniel Barden
Olivia Engel
Josephine Gay
Dylan Hockley
Madeleine Hsu
Catherine Hubbard
Chase Kowalski
Jesse Lewis
Ana Marquez-Greene
James Mattioli
Grace McDonnell
Emilie Parker
Jack Pinto
Noah Pozner
Caroline Previdi
Jessica Rekos
Avielle Richman
Benjamin Wheeler
Allison Wyatt

further, it was precisely the type of gun -- as in VA Tech -- that facilitated the mass death of children.

The City of Chicago has no gun shops and some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. Yet, Chicago is now the murder capital of the US. People who want to commit a crime with a gun will find a gun. The person is the problem. Taking away the rights of the many to possibly hinder the actions of the few is no solution.

we've been through this exhaustively before. it's the same in DC. though the crime rate has plummeted, there are about 100 shootings a year. the guns are bought in MD and especially VA, where gun laws are very loose. IN and the rest of IL have very loose gun laws. it would be even worse if Chicago didn't have the gun control it already has. and that's a very selective reading of the article -- Chicago, as the third largest city in the country, is certainly going to have more aggregate murders than Flint or Detroit. but the murder rate in those cities is much higher.

the gun facilitates mass death. these crimes are impossible without guns.

do children have a right not to be shot to death for the sake of these vague "rights" in the 2nd amendment?

let's call these "rights" what they are -- cultural resentments and a misplaced notion of what "freedom" actually means. guns are a threat to public health, like smoking or not wearing seatbelts. it's a shame that something as logical, scientific, and tried-and-true (as seen in Australia, specifically) as gun control has been morphed into a partisan issue by the gun industry.

Though let's say that you're right, Lanza mail orders a semiautomatic through the mail. Newtown happens anyway.

It's still the availability of guns that leaves children dead.

 

[anitram]

The person is the problem.

What is it about American persons that makes them prone to murderous incidents on a scale unseen in the rest of the developed, unconflicted world?

Seems like it's the American person that is the problem.

Why do you think that is? What is the difference between them and a Canadian, a Belgian or an Australian?

 

[BEAL]

What is it about American persons that makes them prone to murderous incidents on a scale unseen in the rest of the developed, unconflicted world?

Seems like it's the American person that is the problem.

Why do you think that is? What is the difference between them and a Canadian, a Belgian or an Australian?

Good point. Only one answer, it's our piss poor laws on obtaining a firearm.

 

[nathan1977]

If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.

 

[BoMac]

The United States is hardly the only country that has a violent past, yet others seem to be doing just fine not shooting each other on a daily basis.

Hmmm.....

 

[Irvine511]

If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.

all the more reason for more gun control then.

 

[anitram]

I think that argument is a bit specious.

There are many countries in the developed world with FAR bloodier and FAR longer bloody histories than the US.

 

[Pearl]

If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.

The United States is hardly the only country that has a violent past, yet others seem to be doing just fine not shooting each other on a daily basis.

Hmmm.....

I agree with BoMac there. I also think the gun culture in this country has a lot of factors to it: politics, masculinity, (I say that because of my brother-in-law who's a gun enthusiast), crime, paranoia. These a deep rooted American issues that many are refusing or afraid to address.

 

[anitram]

Meanwhile, in Michigan:

The mother-in-law of James Pullum, one of two men who died in an apparent road-rage fueled shootout Wednesday, said her daughter and Pullum's mother witnessed the double shooting.

The double shooting happened shortly before 7 p.m. at the Wonder Wand Car Wash at 426 S. Steele St.

Police said the 43-year-old Pullum and the other victim, 56-year-old Robert Taylor, both pulled their vehicles into the car wash after some type of road-rage incident moments earlier.

Both had permits to carry concealed weapons.

After a confrontation between the two men outside of the vehicles, they exchanged shots that ended up being fatal to both men.

I doubt they were mentally ill.

Would this have happened if they didn't have guns?

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/09/relatives_of_james_pullum_one.html

 

[Popmartijn]

Meanwhile, in Michigan:



I doubt they were mentally ill.

Who cares? Two people with guns ended up shooting/killing each other. So that's two gun fanatics less.

As harsh as this sounds, this is more and more how I'm starting to feel about gun deaths in the U.S.A.

 

[PhilsFan]

A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.

YUP. Adam Lanza's mom would have bought a semi-auto out of some gangbanger's trunk all on her own 'cause that's just how gun owners roll!

 

[nbcrusader]

we've been through this exhaustively before. it's the same in DC. though the crime rate has plummeted, there are about 100 shootings a year. the guns are bought in MD and especially VA, where gun laws are very loose. IN and the rest of IL have very loose gun laws. it would be even worse if Chicago didn't have the gun control it already has. and that's a very selective reading of the article -- Chicago, as the third largest city in the country, is certainly going to have more aggregate murders than Flint or Detroit. but the murder rate in those cities is much higher.

You are proving my point here. If the problem is the existence of a gun, shooting crimes should be higher in areas where gun laws are very loose. Yet, areas outside of Chicago and DC are not plagued with shootings.

 

[Irvine511]

It shows that gun control is not sweeping enough. Guns travel far, far too easily. It doesn't matter what one city does, the overall permissiveness of American gun culture will still result in murders. This is why I blame the NRA, the gun owners, and the gun owners themselves. They have blood on their hands. These "rights" are a threat to public safety.

I know Chicago gets singled out, but that's only because Obama is from there, and it's impossible for a conservative to say anything without bashing the president. Chicago's murder rate has gone down since the 1990s ... Except I the poorest areas. Look at the Noeth Side vs the South side. Or SE DC vs NW DC.

Income inequality combined with easy access to guns is what causes a high murder rate.

 

[INDY500]

I can be disgusted by this act of violence and cowardice and still suggest this "ongoing mass shooting thread" note the following;

1) How many mass shootings occur in "gun free zones" (schools, movie theatres, military complexes).

2) How many times the phrase "numerous missed red flags" pops up in the days following the shooting describing authorities or administrators' interactions with the murderer.

 

[bigjohn2441]

restricting access to guns reduces gun crime. there is no getting around that.

then how do you explain that some of the places with the highest murder rates are some of the places with the most strict gun control?

 

[BVS]

then how do you explain that some of the places with the highest murder rates are some of the places with the most strict gun control?

The same reason a healthy person gets sick when they are surrounded by sick people. We don't live in bubbles.

 

[Irvine511]

then how do you explain that some of the places with the highest murder rates are some of the places with the most strict gun control?

These are big cities with massive issues regarding income I equality and the host of problems that flow from that. But the point stands -- guns flow too freely.

A better comparison is homicide rates between states with stronger and/or weaker fun control

 

[Irvine511]

I can be disgusted by this act of violence and cowardice and still suggest this "ongoing mass shooting thread" note the following;

1) How many mass shootings occur in "gun free zones" (schools, movie theatres, military complexes).

2) How many times the phrase "numerous missed red flags" pops up in the days following the shooting describing authorities or administrators' interactions with the murderer.

No mass shootings in Japan, which is a virtual gun free zone.

 

[INDY500]

None in Switzerland either where there are lots and lots of guns... by law.

 

[BVS]

None in Switzerland either where there are lots and lots of guns... by law.

They're trained militia. Are you suggesting mandatory militia training?

 

[Irvine511]

None in Switzerland either where there are lots and lots of guns... by law.

Here, read more about it:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland


Gun ownership is widespread, but *highly* controlled.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.[5]

 

[BoMac]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...ence.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes

 

[BoMac]

Starting today, I'm spending the next two weeks on the east and west coasts of the U.S. Will this topic be in the back of my mind? Definitely. What about my right to have a gunshot-free vacation?

 

[AEON]

What about my right to have a gunshot-free vacation?

Stuck in congress...

 

[Irvine511]

consider:

Lawn darts (also called Jarts or yard darts) is a lawn game for two players or teams. A lawn dart set usually includes four large darts and two targets. The game play and objective are similar to both horseshoes and darts. The darts are similar to the ancient Roman plumbata. They are typically 12 inches (30 cm) long with a weighted metal or plastic tip on one end and three plastic fins on a rod at the other end. The darts are intended to be tossed underhand toward a horizontal ground target, where the weighted end hits first and sticks into the ground. The target is typically a plastic ring, and landing anywhere within the ring scores a point.

[...]

Lawn darts had been banned from being sold in the United States for many years. The ban was challenged in court in the late 1970s, prompting the Consumer Product Safety Commission to make a compromise ruling allowing their sale provided they were not marketed as toys. However, in April 1987, seven-year-old Michelle Snow was killed by a lawn dart thrown by one of her brothers' playmates in the backyard of their home in Riverside, California. The darts had been hidden in the storage room. Michelle's father, David, began a crusade to get lawn darts banned, claiming that there was no way to keep children from getting their hands on lawn darts short of a full ban.[1]

Due in part to Snow's lobbying, on December 19, 1988, the CPSC reinstated the outright ban on lawn darts.[2] In the previous eight years, 6,100 people had been sent to the emergency room due to lawn darts. Out of that total, 81 percent were 15 or younger, and half of them were 10 or younger. On the week the commission voted to ban the product, an 11-year-old girl in Tennessee was hit by a lawn dart and sent into a coma.[1]

Shortly after, in 1989, they were also banned in Canada.[3] Since then, alternatives have surfaced that are available for sale in Canada that are made of plastic.

It is possible to import parts of a lawn dart - plastic flights, metal bodies, and steel spigots - as well as a complete set of replacement parts to repair damaged lawn darts, into the US and Canada. However, fully assembled individual darts, sets, and kits are banned from entry by US and Canada customs.

Lawn darts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[nbcrusader]

The same reason a healthy person gets sick when they are surrounded by sick people. We don't live in bubbles.

And we still fail to address the real problem.

When you consider how many millions of guns exist in the US, and the relatively minute number that are used in crimes, to blame the gun is empty rhetoric. Otherwise, we would see mass shoot-outs all over the country every day.

If you removed 90% of the guns in the US, you would not see a 90% drop in gun crime. The individuals who want to commit a crime using a gun will find a gun.

I wonder if the removal of guns should extend to the non-military sectors of government. Does DHS have the single largest non-military stockpile of ammunition in the US?

 

[Irvine511]

We are addressing the problem and offering solutions, it's you who simply doesnt like the answers. I can only assume because these "rights"/cultural resentments are more important than dead Americans?

Australia did an excellent job dealing with its gun crime after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre. Look into that.

 

[PhilsFan]

If you removed 90% of the guns in the US, you would not see a 90% drop in gun crime. The individuals who want to commit a crime using a gun will find a gun.

But there would be a drop, and a very significant one at that. So, yeah, I'm all for this scenario.