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Old 09-21-2013, 07:17 AM   #106
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Why is it even an argument that because not EVERY gun can be confiscated, it shouldn't even be tried to get stricter gun laws?

When a kid can easily get a gun, something's WRONG with your country. If you make it harder for people to get a gun, less gun related crimes will occur. Simple as that. Sure, the big bad guys will still be able to get a gun, but they already can do that now? So if you can prevent a lot of gun related crimes, murders and mass shootings by starting to regulate guns, why the fuck wouldn't you want it?



It's like saying in sports, "oh we can't possibly beat all our opponnents, maybe we should just drop out of the competition"...
Exactly. Gun regulation discussion gets really defeatist sometimes.
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Old 09-21-2013, 09:56 AM   #107
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As I understand it, the right to arms in the States is derived from the wanting to defend against some tyrannical government. Which is daft now because your local armed militia has no hope against the army with the advent drones, guided missiles and the like.

Though I gather that argument is generally at the fringe of things today.

The only thing that greatly makes sense to me, why the US seems to have such a major issue with guns, is the growing income inequality and poverty. If part of your society are falling further into poverty and increasing in number, crime becomes a more attractive lifestyle, gangs provide the security and benefits that any form of government or employment are not currently supporting them with. Guns become your protection when you can't trust the police to provide that. Mental health also gets worse the poorer you are, add in guns, well its a nice wee powder keg you got going there. The more well off then cling to there guns in fear of the poor. I think this is something that may get worse in the future. Violent crime in general is on a downward trend across the US and the rest of the world though, so I could be wrong.

It doesn't necessarily explain the massacres, I'm aware the likes of Adam Lanza came from a relatively well off background. The massacres to me come across more as outliers to a more general problem.
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Old 09-21-2013, 03:36 PM   #108
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I'm not saying that either of you are, in general, passive towards gun reform (I haven't observed that in this thread), merely that these individual posts have an either/or mentality when I personally believe taking several angles at this problem is more likely to increase safety than settling on one.
I have no idea how you got that from my post. I didn't make any proposal or suggestion, I just pointed out that mental illness is complicated, as is the diagnosis, so the idea that we can use it as a parameter in gun control is something that has to be thought through very thoroughly. This is a very personal issue to me, because I had a close family member who was a violent paranoid schizophrenic (violent towards herself and others) and she is dead now, successful after many unsuccessful suicide attempts. So I intimately understand what mental illness can do and just how hard it is to draw the line over who is mentally ill, when they are mentally ill and what their rights are as patients when it comes to consent, disclosure of medical information and so on. Nothing either/or about it, in fact, the whole post was precisely about the shades of grey in between.

I have never said either/or - frankly I've given up and flat out stated that I don't think anything will change.
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #109
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I have no idea how you got that from my post. I didn't make any proposal or suggestion, I just pointed out that mental illness is complicated, as is the diagnosis, so the idea that we can use it as a parameter in gun control is something that has to be thought through very thoroughly.
This is where I lost you, evidently. I took the hesitance as a "don't bother" rather than a "think carefully."

I'm very sorry to hear about your family member, Martina. Part of me feels like I knew that, maybe it came up during one of the countless other mental illness/gun control discussions we've had since last year.
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:21 PM   #110
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No worries, things get lost in this medium.

My point would be that my aunt was a very clear cut case - a person who, once she was diagnosed, should never have access to guns. Even when she was medicated, she was never stable and you could never count on her to be medically compliant for long.

On the other hand, my husband has a friend who attempted suicide and was involuntarily admitted to a psychiatric facility thereafter. It happened in the immediate aftermath of his wife leaving him. But he received treatment, followed by psychotherapy, some time spent on anti-depressants, etc. It's been almost 5 years and he's a successful professional with a pretty high profile job, etc. So the question would be, when formulating gun control laws around mental illness, what do we do with people like him? He'd have a history of mental illness and even involuntary admission, but is he a threat to himself or to others today? No. Nor was he at any point before that one incident.

These are just hard questions.
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Old 09-21-2013, 07:52 PM   #111
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My guess is that, if this were to be implemented, the APA would have to leaf through the DSM-5 and cherry pick a handful of mental disorders that could be particularly inclined towards harmful behavior, either suicidal or homicidal (bipolar II, antisocial personality disorder) and, if the person applying for a firearm had a history with that disorder (difficult to do for personality disorders, as many people with them see nothing wrong and never get diagnosed) they would essentially be blacklisted.

The problem with this is that many mental disorders can be treated successfully, and it isn't exactly fair to deprive someone for a disease that is no longer relevant to them.
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:41 PM   #112
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Which is why the issue can only be solved via the regulation of guns. Every gun registered and insured, just like cars. Every owner licensed, just like cars. Mandatory safety features.

I'm about as concerned with inconveniencing gun owners as we have been with smokers. They'll deal with it, and we'll all be a whole lot healthier.
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Old 09-22-2013, 01:51 AM   #113
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If we regulated cars like we do guns Adam Lanza would have driven a tank through that elementary school.
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Old 09-22-2013, 07:41 PM   #114
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If we regulated cars like we do guns Adam Lanza would have driven a tank through that elementary school.

The only thing that stops a bad man with a tank is a good man with a tank.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:51 PM   #115
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The only thing that stops a bad man with a tank is a good man with a tank.
This cracked me up - thanks
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:49 PM   #116
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It makes me sick to my stomach, really, that you would even be so passe at the posting of their names as though it was just a bit of fluff journalism. It's reality. Those are dead children. Kids who had Christmas presents waiting for them at home. It's never going to go away, it's never going to be ok for those parents and family and friends. It just absolutely kills me that people can look at that list of names and basically say, "So?"
If you get ill so easily, perhaps you shouldn’t read this discussion. As a parent, and close friend of those who’ve lost their children, I fully understand the tragedy and how it affects the parents and community. And I shouldn’t have to explain that to you to participate in a rational debate on gun control.

As for my prior comment, posting the names of children becomes the emotional putty to fill in the logical gaps in one’s argument. Passing laws that wouldn’t prevent a tragedy and won’t prevent one in the future just to feel better or make a symbolic statement is bad policy. Propose a law that will have clear, direct results and we can have a discussion.
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:27 PM   #117
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if Adam Lanza's mother hadn't been able to purchase a Bushmaster XM15-E2S rifle, those children would be alive today.

this applies to the regulation of ammo as well. in Sandy Hook, Tucson, and VA Tech, people were able to escape (or stop the shooter) when he had to pause to reload.

these are real, clear, actual laws that can be passed. to say nothing has been offered, or that everything that is offered, is a feel-good measure, is to either not read very carefully or to refuse to countenance what is our indirect participation (via supporting of the NRA or the GOP) in these massacres.



Quote:
As for my prior comment, posting the names of children becomes the emotional putty to fill in the logical gaps in one’s argument.
you mean like bringing up abortion?
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:38 PM   #118
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If you get ill so easily, perhaps you shouldn’t read this discussion. As a parent, and close friend of those who’ve lost their children, I fully understand the tragedy and how it affects the parents and community. And I shouldn’t have to explain that to you to participate in a rational debate on gun control.

As for my prior comment, posting the names of children becomes the emotional putty to fill in the logical gaps in one’s argument. Passing laws that wouldn’t prevent a tragedy and won’t prevent one in the future just to feel better or make a symbolic statement is bad policy. Propose a law that will have clear, direct results and we can have a discussion.
oh bless my little heart, this little lady is just too emotional to continue this conversation. Lord have mercy on her easily upset by death soul.
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:14 PM   #119
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Not a mass shooting, but still a shooting:

One Dead in Shooting Near Long Island Mall - WSJ.com

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Sang Ho Kim, 64 years old, allegedly walked into Sav Energy at 645 South St., around 10:11 am and shot two employees, police said. The company is located in a single-story commercial building in East Garden City, a half-mile from the mall.
At a news conference, police said they believe Mr. Kim has been working as a vendor to the company, and alleged that he specifically targeted it.
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Mr. Kim is from Queens and allegedly has a history with police, a law-enforcement official said.
A law firm that works with mine called about this because their firm is in this building and had to re-scheduled a few meetings.

This is bullshit and is getting more ridiculous by the day. What kind of country are we where we just sit back and let shootings happen because we can't agree on how to solve this problem? And why is defending some amendment more important than defending peoples' lives, and what kind of people are we where we get all condescending and rude to someone who is upset by this epidemic?

Seriously? This is America? Land of freedom? How can anybody say that now?
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Old 09-25-2013, 03:35 PM   #120
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apparently the pain we might cause to gun owners is more important than the pain suffered by people who lose a family member to gun violence.
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