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Old 09-19-2013, 02:21 PM   #61
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restricting access to guns reduces gun crime. there is no getting around that.
:Yes:
It worked for Britain and I believe Australia.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:23 PM   #62
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if Adam Lanza's mother hadn't been in possession of a Bushmaster M17S, a semi-automatic, more kids would be starting the 2nd grade this fall in Newtown, CT.
False. A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.


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restricting access to guns reduces gun crime. there is no getting around that.
The City of Chicago has no gun shops and some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. Yet, Chicago is now the murder capital of the US. People who want to commit a crime with a gun will find a gun. The person is the problem. Taking away the rights of the many to possibly hinder the actions of the few is no solution.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:31 PM   #63
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False. A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.

wrong. it is precisely his mother's owning of a semiautomatic that created this event. to say otherwise is wishful thinking and an excuse gun nuts tell themselves. Adam Lanza, mentally unstable and living with his mother, would not have procured a semi-automatic himself. if his mother hadn't been, herself, a gun nut, and in possession of semiautomatics, perhaps some of these children would be alive today:

Quote:
Charlotte Bacon
Daniel Barden
Olivia Engel
Josephine Gay
Dylan Hockley
Madeleine Hsu
Catherine Hubbard
Chase Kowalski
Jesse Lewis
Ana Marquez-Greene
James Mattioli
Grace McDonnell
Emilie Parker
Jack Pinto
Noah Pozner
Caroline Previdi
Jessica Rekos
Avielle Richman
Benjamin Wheeler
Allison Wyatt

further, it was precisely the type of gun -- as in VA Tech -- that facilitated the mass death of children.




Quote:
The City of Chicago has no gun shops and some of the toughest gun control laws in the US. Yet, Chicago is now the murder capital of the US. People who want to commit a crime with a gun will find a gun. The person is the problem. Taking away the rights of the many to possibly hinder the actions of the few is no solution.

we've been through this exhaustively before. it's the same in DC. though the crime rate has plummeted, there are about 100 shootings a year. the guns are bought in MD and especially VA, where gun laws are very loose. IN and the rest of IL have very loose gun laws. it would be even worse if Chicago didn't have the gun control it already has. and that's a very selective reading of the article -- Chicago, as the third largest city in the country, is certainly going to have more aggregate murders than Flint or Detroit. but the murder rate in those cities is much higher.

the gun facilitates mass death. these crimes are impossible without guns.

do children have a right not to be shot to death for the sake of these vague "rights" in the 2nd amendment?

let's call these "rights" what they are -- cultural resentments and a misplaced notion of what "freedom" actually means. guns are a threat to public health, like smoking or not wearing seatbelts. it's a shame that something as logical, scientific, and tried-and-true (as seen in Australia, specifically) as gun control has been morphed into a partisan issue by the gun industry.

Though let's say that you're right, Lanza mail orders a semiautomatic through the mail. Newtown happens anyway.

It's still the availability of guns that leaves children dead.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:29 PM   #64
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The person is the problem.
What is it about American persons that makes them prone to murderous incidents on a scale unseen in the rest of the developed, unconflicted world?

Seems like it's the American person that is the problem.

Why do you think that is? What is the difference between them and a Canadian, a Belgian or an Australian?
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:55 PM   #65
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What is it about American persons that makes them prone to murderous incidents on a scale unseen in the rest of the developed, unconflicted world?

Seems like it's the American person that is the problem.

Why do you think that is? What is the difference between them and a Canadian, a Belgian or an Australian?
Good point. Only one answer, it's our piss poor laws on obtaining a firearm.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #66
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If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:38 PM   #67
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The United States is hardly the only country that has a violent past, yet others seem to be doing just fine not shooting each other on a daily basis.

Hmmm.....
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:40 PM   #68
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If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.

all the more reason for more gun control then.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:54 PM   #69
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I think that argument is a bit specious.

There are many countries in the developed world with FAR bloodier and FAR longer bloody histories than the US.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:59 PM   #70
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If you believe in the notion of a collective soul or identity, then you have to look at America's history -- birthed in violence that often turned people of goodwill against each other based on their allegiance either to the Crown or their ideals of self-determination, and then re-defined in violence as brother turned against brother based on their belief either in federalism or states' rights. Our history is one of violence, and you can't ignore the inherent paranoia that gets folded into a culture where we started out fighting oppression, and then fought house to house for/against that same oppression.
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The United States is hardly the only country that has a violent past, yet others seem to be doing just fine not shooting each other on a daily basis.

Hmmm.....
I agree with BoMac there. I also think the gun culture in this country has a lot of factors to it: politics, masculinity, (I say that because of my brother-in-law who's a gun enthusiast), crime, paranoia. These a deep rooted American issues that many are refusing or afraid to address.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #71
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Meanwhile, in Michigan:

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The mother-in-law of James Pullum, one of two men who died in an apparent road-rage fueled shootout Wednesday, said her daughter and Pullum's mother witnessed the double shooting.

The double shooting happened shortly before 7 p.m. at the Wonder Wand Car Wash at 426 S. Steele St.

Police said the 43-year-old Pullum and the other victim, 56-year-old Robert Taylor, both pulled their vehicles into the car wash after some type of road-rage incident moments earlier.

Both had permits to carry concealed weapons.

After a confrontation between the two men outside of the vehicles, they exchanged shots that ended up being fatal to both men.
I doubt they were mentally ill.

Would this have happened if they didn't have guns?

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...ullum_one.html
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:24 PM   #72
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Meanwhile, in Michigan:



I doubt they were mentally ill.
Who cares? Two people with guns ended up shooting/killing each other. So that's two gun fanatics less.

As harsh as this sounds, this is more and more how I'm starting to feel about gun deaths in the U.S.A.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:52 PM   #73
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A person who wants a gun will find a gun. His mom's possession of a gun didn't trigger this event.
YUP. Adam Lanza's mom would have bought a semi-auto out of some gangbanger's trunk all on her own 'cause that's just how gun owners roll!
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:03 PM   #74
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we've been through this exhaustively before. it's the same in DC. though the crime rate has plummeted, there are about 100 shootings a year. the guns are bought in MD and especially VA, where gun laws are very loose. IN and the rest of IL have very loose gun laws. it would be even worse if Chicago didn't have the gun control it already has. and that's a very selective reading of the article -- Chicago, as the third largest city in the country, is certainly going to have more aggregate murders than Flint or Detroit. but the murder rate in those cities is much higher.
You are proving my point here. If the problem is the existence of a gun, shooting crimes should be higher in areas where gun laws are very loose. Yet, areas outside of Chicago and DC are not plagued with shootings.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:21 PM   #75
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It shows that gun control is not sweeping enough. Guns travel far, far too easily. It doesn't matter what one city does, the overall permissiveness of American gun culture will still result in murders. This is why I blame the NRA, the gun owners, and the gun owners themselves. They have blood on their hands. These "rights" are a threat to public safety.

I know Chicago gets singled out, but that's only because Obama is from there, and it's impossible for a conservative to say anything without bashing the president. Chicago's murder rate has gone down since the 1990s ... Except I the poorest areas. Look at the Noeth Side vs the South side. Or SE DC vs NW DC.

Income inequality combined with easy access to guns is what causes a high murder rate.
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