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Old 09-17-2013, 09:44 PM   #31
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Sorry but this "assault weapon" language is all bullshit. It's made up to demonize scary-looking guns that have the same function and are NO MORE lethal than non-"assault weapons." Not to mention that they are used the LEAST in these mass shootings.



I think it's just because the scary-looking guns are BLACK , isn't it???

They sure do a number on 1st graders.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:16 PM   #32
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They sure do a number on 1st graders.
So would any other modern firearm. Including the 2 pistols that "person" was carrying.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:23 PM   #33
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In fact, between 1982-2012 mass shootings semi-automatic pistols have been used almost 3 times more than rifles, shotguns, and revolvers.

So why not ban pistols before these so-called "assault weapons?"
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:57 PM   #34
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U.S. Navy was warned that Washington shooter 'heard voices'

By Phil Stewart and Scott Malone

WASHINGTON/BOSTON (Reuters) - Rhode Island police warned the U.S. Navy last month that Washington Navy Yard gunman Aaron Alexis had reported "hearing voices," raising further questions about how he gained security clearance at the complex where he went on a shooting rampage.

Officials say Alexis, a Navy contractor and former Navy reservist, opened fire at the Naval Sea Systems Command on Monday, killing 12 people before police shot him dead.

The shooting - a mile and a half from the U.S. Capitol and three miles from the White House - sent shockwaves through Washington.

The Pentagon said it would review security at military installations around the world and the White House promised to review standards for federal government contractors.

A Defense Department Inspector General's report published on Tuesday revealed security lapses that allowed 52 convicted felons to gain access to Navy facilities because budget cuts had undermined vetting.

Meanwhile, the U.S. capital paused to remember the victims, aged 46 to 73, who included retirees, parents and a bird lover.

Police in Newport, Rhode Island, were so concerned about Alexis' behavior on a business trip there in August that they alerted Navy police.

Alexis told police he believed people were following him and "sending vibrations into his body," according to a Newport police report.

He told police that he had twice moved hotels to avoid the noise he heard coming through the floor and the ceiling of his rooms, and that the people following him were using "some sort of microwave machine" to prevent him from sleeping.

"Based on the naval base implications and the claim that the involved subject, one (Aaron Alexis) was 'hearing voices,' I made contact with the on-duty Naval Station police," a Newport police officer wrote, adding that he faxed his report of the incident to Navy police.

The Newport police report said Navy police had promised to check if Alexis was in fact a naval base contractor.

Asked for comment, a spokesman said the Navy was looking into the matter, without confirming any details.

In addition, CNN reported that Alexis had contacted two Veterans Administration hospitals recently and was believed to be seeking psychological help.

"Initial reports indicate that this is an individual who may have had some mental health problems," U.S. President Barack Obama told Spanish-language network Telemundo.

"The fact that we do not have a firm enough background check system is something that makes us more vulnerable to these kinds of mass shootings."

The Navy gave Alexis an honorable discharge despite a series of eight to 10 misconduct charges, ranging from traffic offenses to disorderly conduct.

SECURITY CLEARANCE

Using a valid pass as an information technology contractor with a private company, Alexis entered the Naval Sea Systems Command headquarters with a shotgun - bought legally in Virginia - and gained access to a handgun after he started firing, officials said.

He started picking off victims in a cafeteria from a fourth-floor atrium, witnesses said. Eight people were hurt, three with gunshot wounds, before Alexis was killed in a gun battle with police.

A U.S. defense official said a National Agency Check, a type of background check, was completed on Alexis in August 2007 and he was determined eligible to handle "secret" material in March 2008. Such clearances are valid for 10 years, meaning Alexis had no need to renew his.

Alexis' employer said it had enlisted a service to make what appeared to be two standard, employment background checks on him over the past year, finding only a traffic violation while twice confirming his "secret"-level security clearance with the U.S. Defense Department.

"The latest background check and security clearance confirmation were in late June of 2013 and revealed no issues other than one minor traffic violation," The Experts, an information technology company, said in a statement.

Alexis was arrested on September 4, 2010, in Fort Worth, Texas, on a misdemeanor charge of discharging a firearm. He was also arrested in Seattle in 2004 for shooting out a construction worker's car tires in an anger-fueled "blackout" triggered by perceived "disrespect," police said. In 2008, he was cited for disorderly conduct in DeKalb County, Georgia, when he was kicked out of a club for damaging furnishings and cursing.

In each case, the charges were dropped.

People who knew Alexis said they were shocked by the shooting, describing him as a lover of Thai culture who worshipped at a Buddhist temple in Texas, although one acquaintance told reporters he had an unnatural affection for violent video games.

The Navy Yard was closed to all but essential personnel on Tuesday. Military police were stationed at the four entrances, checking the identifications of the employees who were being allowed back in. Other personnel milled around outside, hoping to retrieve cars that remained locked inside the gates.

"I've never ever felt unsafe at this place," said David Berlin, a civilian who works at the Navy Yard as an assistant program manager building weapons systems. "If someone wants to skirt the rules, they can do that, but you trust your colleagues."

(Additional reporting by Mark Hosenball, Deborah Charles, Ian Simpson, and Alina Selyukh; Writing by Daniel Trotta; editing by Christopher Wilson)
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Old 09-17-2013, 11:16 PM   #35
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In fact, between 1982-2012 mass shootings semi-automatic pistols have been used almost 3 times more than rifles, shotguns, and revolvers.

So why not ban pistols before these so-called "assault weapons?"

I'm fine with banning all of those.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:06 AM   #36
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There's just that pesky second amendment in the way
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:10 AM   #37
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I'm fine with banning all of those.
That will never happen. The best bet is to make them more difficult to purchase for those with mental health issues and violent backgrounds.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:47 AM   #38
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I'm so out of the loop and so on the opposite side of the globe here... but is cracking down hard on ammunition any sort of option?

Like, seriously? Fine, have your guns, have your bunker busting assault weapons, your pistols and rifles, whatever... but regulate the ammo within an inch of its life.

Yes, yes, I know, 3D printers... but mercifully for us all it's relatively early days there (and maybe not without its roadbumps).
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:12 AM   #39
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There's just that pesky second amendment in the way

We dont pay much attention to the 4th amendment, why is the 2nd so special, other than the fact that it has better lobbyists protecting a massive industry?
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:53 AM   #40
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We dont pay much attention to the 4th amendment
If "we" Americans weren't so ignorant of what this is, or how to apply it, "we" wouldn't have this problem.

Assuming that our 4th ammendment is being eroded by the government, if that was what you were alluding to.

Owning guns gives people the illusion that they are free. The 2nd amendment is clear cut. I can own guns, look how free I am. The 4th amendment is, like, I dunno a bunch of confusing legal stuff, or something. The 2nd amendment is a lot easier to understand and apply for your average couch-potato American.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:08 AM   #41
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It's not, though. The 2nd Amendmentnisnt nearly as clear cut as the NRA tells people it is.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #42
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a multi-faceted problem requires a multi-pronged approach:

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What If We Treated Guns Like Cars?
Sep 17, 2013 12:15 PM EDT

In the single year 1965, some 47,000 Americans died in car accidents, as many as died in combat in the entire Vietnam War.

The carnage on the roads inspired Americans to act. Over the next three decades, Americans did three main things to improve auto safety:

1) They improved auto design, by requiring seat belts and other safety technology.

2) They improved road design, with clearer signs and wider highway medians.

3) They cracked down on unsafe driver behavior, especially drunk driving.

It all worked! Auto fatalities have declined and declined and declined. The year 2011 set another safety record: 1.1 auto deaths per 100 million vehicle miles driven. Americans can hope for even greater improvements in the years ahead as cars gain artificial intelligence.

Suppose somebody had argued back in 1965 that the "real" cause of car accidents was drinking. Suppose they had argued that it was useless to improve roads and a violation of automakers' rights to require seat belts—that the one and only thing to do was to crack down on drunk driving. They wouldn't have been wrong about drunk driving. But had they been listened to, much less progress would have been achieved.

Improved gun safety no more requires a gun ban than improved auto safety demanded the outlawing of cars.

Yet this is exactly how the debate over gun safety unfolds. After a mass casualty shooting, gun rights advocates direct our attention to the gaps in the American mental health system. They're right, too! But it is also true that the easy availability of guns enables mentally troubled people to do much more damage than they might in another country where guns are harder to come by. Shouldn't we pay attention to both problems?

Yes, we have to tread lightly with gun regulation: the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. But the mentally ill have rights too, including the right not to be locked up on the warning of a relative or teacher or co-worker. The Second Amendment does not trump the Fifth Amendment.

But if the easy availability of guns is not the sole cause of horrors like the Washington Navy Yard massacre, the easy availability of guns is the proximate cause of thousands of other less spectacular tragedies every year: the accidents, the unintended shootings, the ordinary arguments that escalate into gun battles.

Gun rights advocates insist that the U.S. faces a choice between the status quo and the repeal of the Second Amendment and mass confiscation of firearms. That is false. Improved gun safety no more requires a gun ban than improved auto safety demanded the outlawing of cars. Gun design could be regulated to enhance safety. Those who wish to own guns could be required to take safety courses and pass a test. Individuals who are found to store their weapons unsafely could forfeit for a time their ownership rights. Persons convicted of drug offenses or drunk driving could be deprived of gun rights in their sentence, as felons now are deprived of the right to vote in many states. The classes of weapons associated with mass casualty shooting could be more strictly controlled. It's not all or nothing, not all one way or all the other way: moderate steps could achieve substantial results. The goal is not to reduce the level of gun violence to zero, any more than it is to stop all auto fatalities. The goal is to enhance safety while upholding legitimate rights. It's been done before. It can be done again.

What If We Treated Guns Like Cars? - The Daily Beast


i'd also like to see mandatory gun classes, like driver's ed, and gun insurance, like car insurance.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #43
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Guys...GUYS, it's called an amendment for a reason, no? That means that it can be changed, removed, or improved upon, provided that there was enough political will to do so.

Not sure what it's going take for that to happen, though. Will it be after the next several mass shootings (and make no mistake, there will be many more) and people decide they no longer wish to visit the United States and will take their money elsewhere? It appears to me that only the loss of money, not life, is what spurs people into action, as sad and demoralizing as that is.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:57 AM   #44
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i'd also like to see mandatory gun classes -
This certainly seems reasonable.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:03 PM   #45
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Guys...GUYS, it's called an amendment for a reason, no? That means that it can be changed, removed, or improved upon, provided that there was enough political will to do so.
This would lead to civil war - if it ever got passed - which it won't.

Like it or not - the guns are here to stay. We can't move forward in any meaningful way if people don't accept this.

Now, since the guns are here to stay - how best we can manage them? This is where the reasonable discourse must take place. I believe that once Americans know their guns are safe - they will be open to some new ideas around permits, licensing, tracking, background checks...etc.
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