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Old 10-03-2015, 10:40 PM   #301
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That's what it comes down to, hey. You put evidence in front of people and they reveal that they actually aren't concerned at all about changing your horrific gun culture, because they lose some ridiculous ideal of "personal liberty"

I'd love to see a graph of the amount of lives guns have saved (intruders, etc, whatever) vs the amount of lives lost in mass shootings that could be stopped with heavier laws.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:50 PM   #302
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I watch true crime stories from time to time, and it does often seem that a lot of the time with those stories, if a family has a gun (if not more) in their home, one or more of them winds up being killed by the very gun(s) they own. And usually they're killed by someone they know as well.

Certainly, there are intruders and random attacks that happen, of course. But it seems a lot of the pro-gun "it's for our protection!" people seem to forget that it's often the people you actually know personally who are most likely to hurt or kill you, and never consider the idea that be it an intruder or someone they know killing them, they can take your gun (especially if it's someone you know attacking and threatening you, since they would know where your guns are kept) and use it against you. And in that case...you're kind of SOL, aren't you?

I also get amused by the, "Just arm all the good guys with guns" argument because, well, aside from the fact that who the "good" guys are and who the "bad" guys are isn't always easy to discern, in seemingly almost every mass shooting thus far, one of these three scenarios wound up happening and were the reason the spree came to an end:

1. The killer committed suicide. Fat lot of good arming the "good guys" would do there, then, no?

2. Law enforcement officials killed them. Which makes sense. Because they're, y'know, TRAINED to do that. They can figure out how to aim at the shooter in ways that don't put innocent people in danger.

3. The killer was tackled, SANS WEAPON, by law enforcement officials/people caught in the crossfire/security guards, and held down until they were arrested and brought in peacefully.

It doesn't seem "random passerby pulling out a gun and shooting and killing the murderer in one go" seems to be a very likely scenario in those moments. So where the pro-gun rights side thinks this is even likely a necessary suggestion, I don't understand.
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Old 10-03-2015, 11:09 PM   #303
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Old 10-03-2015, 11:28 PM   #304
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Ha. Well put. Very, very well put.
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:54 AM   #305
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I tried to point out the Australia thing to him and ask him why he thinks Americans are so inherently incapable of change if it works elsewhere...no answer.
As far as I can tell, American exceptionalism means that Americans find it exceptionally difficult to achieve productive change and reform.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:24 PM   #306
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I love my mom, but I had to restrain myself from getting into it on Facebook with her yesterday.

She's pretty right wing. Okay. But, surprisingly, she's pro-choice! Cool. But, she does not care for Planned Parenthood because she feels they've been "co-opted by the left." (We didn't get further into the conversation at the time, because my dad was in the room, and I don't do political debates with my dad, who thinks I'm in danger of being nuked living in Seattle.)

Now she's on Facebook saying she is a proud NRA member who supports her second amendment right to own a gun. (My folks own a gun. Okay. It doesn't thrill me, but okay.)

How she can hold the "co-opted" views on PP and not see the exact same thing with the NRA drives me crazy.
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:37 PM   #307
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Yeah, I'm still trying to work this logic out on the right: We can't regulate/legalize gun usage because, hey, people are going to find ways to get guns no matter what, and it's not fair to blame responsible gun owners for their actions (even though nobody's done that, and if you are a responsible gun owner, then any gun control shouldn't be an issue for you to worry about at all, but whatever).

Then they turn around and say that we need to defund Planned Parenthood and regulate women's ability to get abortions, even though, going by their logic, women will still have (and have had) abortions even if it's made illegal and that organization is defunded.

So...yeah.

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As far as I can tell, American exceptionalism means that Americans find it exceptionally difficult to achieve productive change and reform.
Basically, we seem to think we don't need to listen to anyone else. We're the best! We can take care of things ourselves! Never mind the fact that we're a significantly young country compared to much of the rest of the world, and that it might behoove us to listen to the people who've been there, done that already.

We're like the little sibling that wants to prove they're a big kid now.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:12 PM   #308
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I think what best describes on how we feel about the US gun laws would be... well, just the news showed a clip on mr Trump's response to the drama.. claiming that if the people in the school had guns they'd be a lot better off than they were now.

Exactly how the hell is that an appropriate response to such a drama? It's like salt in the wounds of the victims and people are LOVING it. What the heck man, what the heck?

Obama's response was far more sensible, and I do realise that a lot of people in the US are sharing his thoughts... but the general idea that we here have of the US is more like Trump.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:30 PM   #309
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If everyone in the school had a rocket launcher then they really could have ended it quickly.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:28 PM   #310
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and they would have something of value for all their college debt
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:53 PM   #311
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we had a chance to move on and stop talking about this loser that killed 9 unarmed people


but law enforcement ruined it


Police: ‘They were going to come on campus and shoot and kill as many people as possible’ - The Washington Post
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:19 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Galeongirl View Post
I think what best describes on how we feel about the US gun laws would be... well, just the news showed a clip on mr Trump's response to the drama.. claiming that if the people in the school had guns they'd be a lot better off than they were now.

Exactly how the hell is that an appropriate response to such a drama? It's like salt in the wounds of the victims and people are LOVING it. What the heck man, what the heck?
I always want these people to try saying this stuff to the victims' families' faces. Say "Let's just arm everyone!" to the parents who lost children in Sandy Hook. See how well their cavalier attitudes would be received.

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Obama's response was far more sensible, and I do realise that a lot of people in the US are sharing his thoughts... but the general idea that we here have of the US is more like Trump.
Ergh. That's embarrassing. And I'm sorry for that.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:51 PM   #313
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I'm currently in a FB argument with Americans about this hahaha I'm loving it.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:06 PM   #314
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I'm currently in a FB argument with Americans about this hahaha I'm loving it.


Arguing with gun nuts is proof positive that gun nuts are exactly the kind of people who should have their guns confiscated.

It's a vicious circle.
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Old 10-04-2015, 10:35 PM   #315
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Pretty much. As I said above, if you're a genuinely responsible gun owner, then you shouldn't have to worry about the regulations and restrictions affecting your ability to keep your gun(s).

cobl, feel free to share any notable aspects of your debate if and when you want ! I'm alternately curious and terrified to see how they react to some of your arguments.
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