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Old 11-27-2013, 01:07 PM   #151
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You can't assume causation. I'm sure there's more gun ownership in the south. I'm sure there's more racism in the south. I'm sure there's more grits in the south. There's no more reason to assume one of these factors in any way causes the other
I'm pretty sure that guns cause grits, which cause racism.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:23 PM   #152
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That math seems sound
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:47 PM   #153
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You can't assume causation. I'm sure there's more gun ownership in the south. I'm sure there's more racism in the south. I'm sure there's more grits in the south. There's no more reason to assume one of these factors in any way causes the other


i'd agree. i also agree that just because you are a gun owner doesn't mean you are a racist. nor do i think that because you're a racist, you're necessarily going to become a gun owner.

but let's focus on the (peer reviewed) study. it does not suggest that beliefs about guns are caused by white racism. it is not arguing that having a gun necessarily makes one more likely to be a racist. the study also isn't saying that conservatives are racists or bigots, nor does their research indicate that all gun owners are racists. it would be better for 2nd Amendment pressure groups if the study actually did say that. it doesn't.

i think it's important to first understand what social scientists do and what they do not do, so that we don't just dismiss things because we don't like their conclusions. as much as one might say that the results of this study advance a particular agenda, it also just as easily (if not more) advances an agenda opposite to the one that it might appear to support. in fact, i'd say that a study like this might actually worsen the case for gun control, because it gives people to throw their hands in the air and do the "oh. my. GOD! i am NOT a racist!" and thus end any sort of dialogue to be had on the subject of gun ownership and racism. the suggestion that white people's levels of racial resentment may be related to gun ownership is bound to upset white victimologists.

notably, this study focuses on symbolic racism -- so the number of times you use the N-word or attend a Klan rally isn't applicable here. symbolic racism symbolic racism emphasizes a narrative of black criminals and white vicitims (see the present hysteria about The Knockout Game for a recent example). this dynamic has been present in America since it's founding.

sometimes, answers are complex, and a combination of yes and no.
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:46 PM   #154
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There are peer reviewed articled published all the time that appear to show correlations where there are none. All that means is their methods were sound. You can find peer reviewed articles linking olive oil and reduced heart disease. Red wine and reduced heard disease. Fighter performance and whether or not they smiled during the weigh ins. The answers are complex. So complex that it's nearly pointless to draw conclusions like that from them. It only adds more useless noise to an already noisy issue.

I was being tongue in cheek with the grits thing, but I can pretty much guarantee you'll find an apparent link between grits and gun ownership. Also in cowboy hats and gun ownership.

What do you think the study is trying to say?
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:06 PM   #155
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What do you think the study is trying to say?

i think the study is saying that they found a link between gun ownership and symbolic racism.

and i, myself, think this also links to the earlier article i posted about the 11 different nations within North America.
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:28 PM   #156
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i think the study is saying that they found a link between gun ownership and symbolic racism.
This is exactly what I'm refuting. There are way too many factors at play to claim any such link.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:01 PM   #157
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This is exactly what I'm refuting. There are way too many factors at play to claim any such link.

Here's a link to the study:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0077552

Where do you think they've gone wrong?
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:03 PM   #158
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There's a correlation, sure. But that doesn't mean anything. If I found a correlation between racism and goatees, what would you take from that?
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:18 PM   #159
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There's a correlation, sure. But that doesn't mean anything. If I found a correlation between racism and goatees, what would you take from that?

I think you might be oversimplifying.

I agree, the rule of social science is that correlation doesn't prove causation, but I also don't think the study is making the claims being ascribed to it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:38 PM   #160
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For argument's sake, let's say I am oversimplifying. What are we to do with this data? Is it implying that resistance to gun control is at least partly based on racism?
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Old 12-01-2013, 04:44 AM   #161
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Metallica fans are racist!
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:02 PM   #162
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For argument's sake, let's say I am oversimplifying. What are we to do with this data? Is it implying that resistance to gun control is at least partly based on racism?

The data may help us understand why there is, in part, deeply ingrained resistance to gun control. It's not a political recommendation, but it can help inform policy as it is created, as well as help us understand why there is resistance to gun control. It's not that gun owners are stupid, nor is it to say that gun owners are racist, but it is to say that part of the appeal of guns has to do with cultural historical narratives that are racist.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:24 PM   #163
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Gun Laws Passed This Year | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
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Old 12-13-2013, 03:07 PM   #164
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Old 12-13-2013, 03:37 PM   #165
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