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Old 07-14-2002, 07:44 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Just to add to what I said before - I don't consider the US as a country to be 'evil', I certainly don't consider its citizens to be 'evil'. I believe that some of the actions taken by the government of the US were extremely wrong, although personally I wouldn't choose the word 'evil' to describe them.
Ah A Great.. 'Let me Couch Myself because I came across Too... _________'.. Justification

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Old 07-14-2002, 09:21 PM   #47
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Could he be...
Could he be.....
Could he be.........

SATAN
Not according to my definition of Satan. Neither of them come close to my definition. Of course it is just my definition but I have a right to defend my beliefs.
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Old 07-14-2002, 09:27 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


The one thing I'm noticing in all your replies is that instead of discussing the subject in question (ie US foreign policy) you're limiting your responses to criticism of me for raising the topic in the first place.
Criticism?
Your original post was not full of this criticism listing a slew of countries insinuating US involvement with them is evil? If you are concerned with me "criticising" you, what about all of the Americans who gave their lives in these "evil" actions? Would you not be criticising an entire country here?

Quote:
No, I don't wait for conservative posts to respond to - I respond whenver I wish to be involved in a discussion here. Why do you believe what I post is "propaganda"? I believe a discussion of US foreign policy serves far more purpose than to be "offensive to certain members" and I certainly don't post with the intention of offending conservatives anymore than I would expect conservatives to post simply to offend liberals.
But why are your cross-hairs always aimed at the United States? Why not start a controversial thread about the U.K. foreign Policy? Or lack of? <---no thats not a slam either

Quote:

There's a vast amount of information available freely to anyone who is interested - I'm not asking you to reveal anything you believe should be kept secret. However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to believe your arguments are correct simply because you declare them to be so, without providing any evidence.
Having lived some of the information you enjoy to read, I don't necessarily feel the need to go study what I have done. But yes, I am aware that information exists, thanks for pointing it out though.

I don't necessarily expect you to believe me, but what is your point? Would you like to start debating this issue Re: every country on your list? I think you just want to debate, which is your reasoning for making such a bold statement to begin with.


Quote:

Again - why are you attacking me? If you disagree then explain why. If you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about then explain why - don't just hurl insults!
I'm not attacking you.
Perhaps you should re-read everything I have said.
If I were attacking you then you would know it.

And speaking of hurling insults, given my background and the obvious fact that I am American and in the military, you don't find your original post insulting?

Quote:
No, that's not what I'm saying! Personally I am opposed to the US attacking Iraq,
I guess we should wait for them to bring it to us then? Is that what you want? I mean they are behind terrorism but thats not enough to stop them? You might think differently when they start blowing up your buildings, and you see people jumping out of buildings to their death to avoid burning up.
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Old 07-15-2002, 06:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
Criticism?
Your original post was not full of this criticism listing a slew of countries insinuating US involvement with them is evil? If you are concerned with me "criticising" you, what about all of the Americans who gave their lives in these "evil" actions? Would you not be criticising an entire country here?


My point was that you seem more concerned with criticising me for posting something negative about the United States than with discussing what I'd posted. You didn't respond explaining why the US was involved in those situations, instead you responded saying I didn't know what I was talking about.

No - I'm not criticising an entire country. I'm criticising the foreign policy of its government. And please recall that it's you who selected the word "evil" - I never described the US or any other country as "evil".

Quote:
But why are your cross-hairs always aimed at the United States? Why not start a controversial thread about the U.K. foreign Policy? Or lack of? <---no thats not a slam either


Well, in this case I was criticising the US but I'm also perfectly happy to criticise my own country:
1)This government has passed disgusting legislation about asylum and immigration.
2)One of the first acts of this government was a huge attack on university students - I disagree with that.
3)The government want to privatise the tube - spectacularly bad idea.
4)Foreign policy? Blair is too friendly with right-wing leaders - Berlusconi, Aznar, Bush.
5)Military spending is far too high.
If you want to discuss any of those then start a new thread or ask me to start a new thread.


Quote:
I don't necessarily expect you to believe me, but what is your point? Would you like to start debating this issue Re: every country on your list? I think you just want to debate, which is your reasoning for making such a bold statement to begin with.


Well, isn't that pretty much the purpose of this forum? To have discussions/debates? I did want to debate the issues, which is why I think it's a shame that nobody has actually talked about what I posted, but rather my right to post it in the first place.

Quote:
And speaking of hurling insults, given my background and the obvious fact that I am American and in the military, you don't find your original post insulting?


Well, that's rather like saying "given that I work in the NHS (that's our healthcare system in the UK), don't you think it's offensive to suggest we shouldn't have nationalised healthcare?" (I don't actually work for the NHS - I'm just using that as an example) I've heard many arguments on that subject here but I don't find them offensive, I just disagree with them. If you're offended then I'm sorry about that and it wasn't my intention when I posted.

Quote:
I guess we should wait for them to bring it to us then? Is that what you want? I mean they are behind terrorism but thats not enough to stop them? You might think differently when they start blowing up your buildings, and you see people jumping out of buildings to their death to avoid burning up.
Quote:
In 1996 Clinton was told that in order to remove Saddam Hussein from power, he would have to risk the deaths of 10,000 Iraqi citizens. There's nothing to suggest that Iraq was involved in the terrorist attacks last September. I don't believe that at this time the US or any other country is justified in attacking Iraq and risking the lives of thousands of Iraqi citizens.

Also - the idea of "your buildings" - I wouldn't view the deaths of British citizens as a greater tragedy than those of American citizens, or Afghan citizens of Iraqi citizens. I believe ALL people are equal, regardless of their nationality.
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Old 07-15-2002, 08:25 AM   #50
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In regards to Iraq... Allow me to take a quote from the DoucheTastic Thread..

The All Holy Dan Savage:

"This is what we're up against these days, and it depresses this Gore voter past the point of despair to write this... but... uh... the recently unveiled Bush Doctrine (rough translation: If we think you're coming after us next Tuesday, we'll be bombing your ass flat this Tuesday) is a necessary evil."

JOY IN BAGHDAD

Why revisit these issues now? Why bring all this up when we should be celebrating our first Independence Day since the September 11 attacks? Because we're about to go to war again--hello, Saddam!--and it would be nice if the left refrained from sticking its collective head up its collective ass this time.

Here are some fun facts about Iraq:

Iraq is ruled by a psychotic dictator who has successfully terrorized his own people into submission. (See "Tales of the Tyrant" by Mark Bowden in the May 2002 Atlantic Monthly.) Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction (anthrax, mustard gas, nerve agents, biological weapons), and Saddam Hussein has used those weapons against his own people. (Yes, yes: We've got weapons of mass destruction too, but the federal government has so far refrained from gassing, say, the people of Oregon for defying John Ashcroft on the assisted suicide issue.) Finally, Iraq may be closer to building a nuclear bomb than we think, and does anyone doubt that Saddam would use one if he got his hands on one? (Yes, yes, I know: The United States has helped Saddam hold onto power over the years, we gave him military aid during the Iran/Iraq war, and the first President Bush did all he could to make sure Saddam stayed in power after the Gulf War, and there are other atrocities. But like Mr. Hitchens said about the Taliban, does this not double or triple our responsibility to remove him from power?)

All of these facts should bother anyone who resides in the United States--and here are some fun facts specifically meant to bother people who live in Seattle: For all the talk of nuclear "suitcase bombs," people paid to worry about terrorism are more concerned about "conex bombs," as Bill Keller wrote in the May 26 New York Times Magazine ["Nuclear Nightmares"]. The name "conex" refers to "those shack-size steel containers that bring most cargo into the United States." Last year almost two million conex containers were unloaded at the Port of Seattle, and tens or hundreds of thousands of conex containers come into Seattle every year from Malaysia, the Philippines, Indonesia, and other countries believed to have been infiltrated by al Qaeda fighters. Put a few barrels of anthrax spores and/or some easily obtainable low-grade nuclear waste and a few hundred pounds of explosives into a conex container along with some Islamo-fascist jackass excited by visions of paradise and... well, will the last person to die in Seattle please turn out the lights?

This is what we're up against these days, and it depresses this Gore voter past the point of despair to write this... but... uh... the recently unveiled Bush Doctrine (rough translation: If we think you're coming after us next Tuesday, we'll be bombing your ass flat this Tuesday) is a necessary evil. Ask yourself this question and answer it honestly: If it was within your power in August of last year to order a pre-emptive strike that would've prevented the attacks of September 11, would you have done it? Of course you would. That's the Bush Doctrine. And the Bush Doctrine's first smackdown is going to be Saddam Hussein, who has to be removed from power before he kills thousands (or tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands) of American citizens in a major American city.

Yes, yes: Taking out Saddam Hussein means war, and war is bad for children and other living things. I went to grade school in the 1970s, and I recall the poster. But there are times when war is not only a tragic and unavoidable necessity, but also good for children and other living things. For instance, doing everything we can to prevent a conex bomb from sailing into the Port of Seattle will save the lives of countless American children and other living things here--like, uh, American adults. And it's not only American children who have benefited from the war that began on October 7, 2001 (my 37th birthday--oh, George! You shouldn't have!). The war in Afghanistan has been good for Afghani children.

"One of the uncomfortable realities of the war on terrorism is that we Americans have killed many more people in Afghanistan than died in the attack on the World Trade Center," Nicholas Kristof wrote in an op-ed ["A Merciful War," February 1, 2002] in the New York Times. Kristof estimates that between 8,000 and 12,000 Taliban fighters and about 1,000 Afghan civilians were killed. "[But in] each of the last few years... 225,000 children died in Afghanistan before the age of five, along with 15,000 women who died during pregnancy or childbirth. There was no way to save those lives under the Taliban." UNICEF was able to vaccinate 734,000 children in the two months after the fall of the Taliban, "in a country where virtually no one had been vaccinated against the disease in the previous 10 years. Because measles often led to death in Afghanistan, the vaccination campaign will save at least 35,000 children's lives each year." In the case of Afghanistan, Kristof concludes, "[War] can serve the most humanitarian of goals."

Much more concerned about humanitarian means than humanitarian ends, lefty weekly the Nation came out--surprise!--against going to war with Iraq: "[S]ince the Gulf War, Iraq's military capabilities have weakened significantly," says the Nation ["War on Iraq Is Wrong," July 8], "to the point where they pose little or no threat to its neighbors," and the Nation worries that a U.S. invasion of Iraq might "destabilize the entire region." (Gee, you think so? Well, gosh, we don't want to do nothin' to destabilize that good ol' peaceful Middle East!)

Even if everything the Nation says is true--Iraq is weak and poses little or no threat to anyone--there's still the small matter of the threat Saddam Hussein's government poses to the people of Iraq. They live in a police state, they're ruled by a tyrant, and their lives are hell. And, yes, U.S. sanctions have made a bad situation worse, but lifting sanctions won't turn Iraq into Sweden. Or Cuba. So even if Saddam Hussein poses no threat to Americans--and that's a mighty big "if" that, post September 11, I'm not sure we should count on--Saddam is threat to his own people.

"There is good reason to think that a Taliban defeat would fill the streets of Kabul with joy," Christopher Hitchens wrote on September 24, 2001, and he was right. There was dancing in the streets of Kabul when the Taliban fell. Does anyone reading this doubt for a moment that the fall of Saddam Hussein won't do the same for the streets of Baghdad?
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Old 07-15-2002, 06:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
[

My point was that you seem more concerned with criticising me for posting something negative about the United States than with discussing what I'd posted. You didn't respond explaining why the US was involved in those situations, instead you responded saying I didn't know what I was talking about.

I have already made my points, to which I stand behind them. If you cannot see why that would be offensive to someone then I guess we are done here.

Quote:
No - I'm not criticising an entire country. I'm criticising the foreign policy of its government. And please recall that it's you who selected the word "evil" - I never described the US or any other country as "evil".
Oh please, you used the word "evil", I quoted you on it.

Quote:
Well, in this case I was criticising the US but I'm also perfectly happy to criticise my own country:
1)This government has passed disgusting legislation about asylum and immigration.
2)One of the first acts of this government was a huge attack on university students - I disagree with that.
3)The government want to privatise the tube - spectacularly bad idea.
4)Foreign policy? Blair is too friendly with right-wing leaders - Berlusconi, Aznar, Bush.
5)Military spending is far too high.
If you want to discuss any of those then start a new thread or ask me to start a new thread.
Feel free to do as you wish, I am very busy and have not the time or desire to do this. People in here who know me realize I do not take any pleasure in making harsh remarks about other members' home countries.

Quote:

Well, isn't that pretty much the purpose of this forum? To have discussions/debates? I did want to debate the issues, which is why I think it's a shame that nobody has actually talked about what I posted, but rather my right to post it in the first place.
I think nobody really paid you any mind because your arguement pops up only every day. GO an look how many threads are anti-USA or in general talking bad about america or her leaders.

Imagine if we had (just a for-instance) a anti-Netherlands thread started every other day in this forum. Would it get old? And yet none of the Americans in here seem willing to stoop to that level.

Quote:
Well, that's rather like saying "given that I work in the NHS (that's our healthcare system in the UK), don't you think it's offensive to suggest we shouldn't have nationalised healthcare?" (I don't actually work for the NHS - I'm just using that as an example) I've heard many arguments on that subject here but I don't find them offensive, I just disagree with them. If you're offended then I'm sorry about that and it wasn't my intention when I posted.
I am sure you didn't mean to offend me personally, but wtf?? You list all of those countries, everything we have ever done militarily (that you are aware of anyway since WWII) and then use "evil" innuendos towards us? And then expect us to happily debate you on like 15 different issues??

I have also been involved in peace-keeping missions and humanitarian missions. That is evil too??

You know just forget it. I really am done here.
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Old 07-15-2002, 06:20 PM   #52
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Originally posted by z edge
You know just forget it. I really am done here.
I think that's probably a good thing, this thread isn't really going anywhere I didn't intend to insult you with any comments I made in this thread, and I hope the same is true for your comments. I'm hope we'll have chance to have more interesting and friendly discussions on some other subjects sometime

*Fizz
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Old 07-17-2002, 08:08 PM   #53
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Fizzing, I think you're starting to get the (accurate) picture that we in America don't get the same information about US involvement in other countries as the rest of the world does so of course it comes as a shock when the truth comes out and people don't know how to respond. Americans are more ignorant than just about anyone else in the entire world about exactly what our government has its fingers in. That is the sad truth as I've come to know it. You guys in the UK get John Pilger's documentaries on TV, for example--in fact, his films and journalism are known all over the world, and here, no one would even publish his books until just recently, finally, a small independent publisher in Boston published his latest book. Just one example. The media here is awful, just awful. And the level of denial is beyond belief. I love this country, but there is a wicked history there in that list you posted.
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Old 07-17-2002, 09:24 PM   #54
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
Fizzing, I think you're starting to get the (accurate) picture that we in America don't get the same information about US involvement in other countries as the rest of the world does so of course it comes as a shock when the truth comes out and people don't know how to respond.
based on what?
while I am sure they don't tell us everything, like I said before we do more for other nations that dosen't get reported yet the liberal media dosen't bother to report the good stuff. SO why would they hide our evil doings then??

Quote:
Americans are more ignorant than just about anyone else in the entire world about exactly what our government has its fingers in. That is the sad truth as I've come to know it.
as you know it, the please prove it

Quote:
. The media here is awful, just awful. And the level of denial is beyond belief. I love this country, but there is a wicked history there in that list you posted.
Joyfulgirl, trust me since I have been outside the USA a lot, we are not as wicked as these propaganda shows, publications, and certain liberal individuals would try to brainwash you into believing we are.

For a reality check, I would encourage you and anyone with this belief to go to 3rd world nations, or Arab nations, or hell just pick one.

You'll come back on your knees, trust me

Ever notice how so many people are flocking to America? I don't see a line waiting to get out of the door either. If we are such a bad place, why do people want to live here?

I don't remember seeing a bunch of folks fleeing America for Somalia, N. korea, Iraq, Africa, Haiti, etc...

I still you though
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Old 07-17-2002, 09:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


President George W. Bush in my signature?

Could he be...
Could he be.....
Could he be.........

SATAN

Using your logic, not mine

I've been meaning to ask you.

Why does your sig picture have W giving that German salute?
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Old 07-17-2002, 09:54 PM   #56
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Originally posted by Hi Bias

I've been meaning to ask you.

Why does your sig picture have W giving that German salute?
very clever

he is actually waving at people (press possibly)

but interpret my sig anyway you want to
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Old 07-18-2002, 01:19 AM   #57
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Joyfulgirl,
Contrary to what you think, other Americans do have access to other media outlets from other countries, but these other outlets are not neccessarily more imformative. In addition there are a number of people on this board who may have more information about particular matters than any media outlet foreign or domestic because of their jobs or past jobs or people they personally know. I for one would listen to my friends experiences serving in the US military in Afghanistan before any media outlet.
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