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Old 07-13-2002, 11:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
Way to take an important quotation by George Kennan out of context, Fizz.

[edit: looks like FizzingWhizzbees removed the sig from his last post?]
It's she, thanks.

And yep, I thought the quote was a bit too long to include as a signature on every post.

But in what way to you consider it to have been taken out of context?
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:43 AM   #32
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sure, post the links. btw, I hope you don't think that I'm condoning the actions that were taken (or not taken as the case may be) in the Indonesian situation. I'm well aware of the ramifications of the Suharto government as well as the events of the 1960s. One point to consider in the massacre was the use of ethnic and religious tensions by the Indonesian military to fan the flames. The Chinese minority population and the ethnic Indonesian majority have never had a very smooth relationship and using the "Communist" label was a convenient way to condone eliminating them. What exactly this had to do with the U.S., I have no idea. From my viewpoint, the U.S. turned a blind eye to the killing for the sake of what they most likely considered the "higher good", that of eliminating Communism and establishing a pro-West government in Suharto. If we want to talk about whether or not that was "right", then that's a whole different discussion.
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Old 07-13-2002, 01:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


It's she, thanks.

And yep, I thought the quote was a bit too long to include as a signature on every post.

But in what way to you consider it to have been taken out of context?
I meant "he" in the genderless sense of the word. Um, yeah.

But anyway, when George Kennan was talking about having a disproportionate share of the world's wealth, there was never any implication that it was wrongly acquired. When he was talking about abandoning notions such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratization, and about operating strictly with regard to straight power concepts, he was dispensing with the notion that the US should patronize the nations of the Far East politically (remember, he was writing this very shortly after the conclusion of World War II). He did not mean that the US should go around raping and pillaging other countries. (Indeed, Kennan was a firm opponent of the Vietnam War.)

I bring this up because it seems that that quote by George Kennan is very widely quoted out of context. For its proper context, see

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Foru...e/chomsky.html
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Old 07-13-2002, 03:58 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


So...military strength is an indicator of 'evil'? The United States is the biggest military power in the world, does that make it the most evil?

Efforts vs. the US and its allies...are US efforts against its 'enemies' are also evil then?:
  • Grenada
  • Guatemala
  • Nicaragua
  • Chile
  • El Salvador
  • Cambodia
  • Laos
  • Vietnam
  • Korea
  • Panama
  • Indonesia
  • Iran
  • Libya
  • Iraq
  • Afghanistan
Thos are just some examples of US interventions since WW2. If we equate interventionism with evil then what does that make the United States?
I am really, really embarassed. And ashamed, ashamed that U2 fans could post such ignorance.

But I am also vindicated, well I mean my thread yesterday "Autobiographically to Blame", two points from that thread were made with this shit(e) post.

See we can't go a day in here without a thread or post like this ( I'm sure we will get a thread of this quality by days end)

Also I pointed out folks who read the end of a novel and suddenly know the whole story. Well I will agree that tragic events have happened in the countries/nations you have listed above. Yet tragedies or difussion of such have forced the USA into involvement.

Since you've read the ending of the book, are you aware that you could add several more names to your list? DO you know the details of each action? No you don't. DO you know why there was U.S. involvement?

I wonder what you would be doing right now if we had never got involved so many times. Playing with your computer? Or would we even have computers?

But if the USA is really evil like you imply, then what does that say of the man walking with President George W. Bush in my signature?

Could he be...
Could he be.....
Could he be.........

SATAN

Using your logic, not mine

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Old 07-14-2002, 12:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge

Since you've read the ending of the book, are you aware that you could add several more names to your list? DO you know the details of each action? No you don't. DO you know why there was U.S. involvement?

I wonder what you would be doing right now if we had never got involved so many times. Playing with your computer? Or would we even have computers?




Yes, a compiled list from www.shitonusa.com z-edge.., cut and pasted by the gizmo ctrl-c of Microsoft's genius Bill Gates.. the page had apparently not been updated with the details and situational information surrounding those events... A great mask for misunderstanding.. Let's see what other shit I can Cut and Paste up here in this thread and pose as an expert into the inner depths of the world we live in..

From http://www.ironminds.com/ironminds/i...troundup.shtml

"Spice Girls Are No. 1 Again
Speaking of stupid Brits, Reuters reports that the Spice Girls are the first female group to have nine British No. 1 singles after new single Holler/Let Love Lead the Way debuted at the top of the charts."

From
http://home.carolina.rr.com/pennyfeathers/bbqsauce.htm

PEGGY'S FAVORITE BBQ SAUCE RECIPE

"1 1/2 cups dark brown sugar
1 1/2 cups Worcestershire sauce
1 1/2 cups prepared mustard
1 quart ketchup
1/2 cup freshly ground black pepper
1/2 cup crushed red pepper flakes
3 quarts red wine vinegar
2 quarts water
1 quart white wine
1 1/2 cups salt
(I don't use quiet that much salt- I cut down
to about 3/4th of a cup)

Place all the ingredients in a 12-quart stainless steel pot and bring
to a boil. Reduce the heat to a low simmer,
cover and cook for 30 minutes.
Store, covered, in glass canning jars in the refrigerator.

Makes 8 quarts
Suggested uses: marinade sauce and barbecue sauce

This recipe can be cut down using even proportions."



And This..




From: http://histclo.hispeed.com/style/foot/sock/sock.html


Boys' Stockings and Socks
The stockings and socks worn by boys have changed significantly over time. Over the knee white stockings were worn with knee britches during much of the 18th century. Short ankle socks, often white, were generally worn by boys for dress at the beginning of the 19th Century. Boys in dressy skeleton suits often wore slippers, white ankle socks and pantalettes or long pantaloons. As boys grew out of skeleton suits and smocks it was common for boys through mid-century to wear various styles of jackets, primarily with long trousers or pantaloons. After mid-century it became increasingly common for younger boys to wear knee pants. Boys in knee pants during the mid-19th century, wore long dark-colored over the knee stockings. Even the fanciest Little Lord Fauntleroy suits were usually worn with dark stockings during the 1880s and 1890s. Long stockings were held up with a kind of waist belt with clasps. Boys wore stockings with horizontal strips during the 1970s-80s, but usually not for formal occassins. Some mothers in the early 20th century turbned to white stockings and socks when dressing boys in Fauntleroy suits or other dressy outfits instead of the dark socks common before the turn of the century. As boys after World War I increasingly dressed in knickers or short pants, knee socks became common. British boys who referred to knee socks as turn over top socks, often wore grey knee socks with their school colors or a pattern at the top. American boys liked to wear argyles with their knickers. After World War II, American boys generally wore ankle socks with argyles or horizontal patterns. White atletic socks were worn with shorts or for port. During the late 1970s, tube socks, or long white atletic socks with color bands at the top became popular as American boys showed greater interest in basketball and soccer.


Yes.. I'm an expert at ricockulous quips about the good ol redbacks, a world famous chef, a clairvoyant into the future of the NBA, and own a PhD in Adolescent Hosiery Studies...



Please Join me in Championing the Cause of the Century.. 'Closed Captioning in Ebonics, to translate the Traditional English Spoken Language fo us telly bussa's'

'Downsiiize dis Mutha Fuckas'

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Old 07-14-2002, 12:57 AM   #36
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Perhaps what the world needs now is Peggys Favorite Barbecue and the impending preceding enema

Just be careful who you cook, because if not well done then you may not enjoy the consequences
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Old 07-14-2002, 06:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
I am really, really embarassed. And ashamed, ashamed that U2 fans could post such ignorance.
There's no need to be either embarrased or ashamed, z edge - a difference of opinion doesn't make either party ignorant. Besides, I'm not sure what bearing being a U2 fan should have on an individuals politics.

Quote:

Since you've read the ending of the book, are you aware that you could add several more names to your list? DO you know the details of each action? No you don't. DO you know why there was U.S. involvement?


Please don't make assumptions about my level of knowledge - perhaps you'd like to give your interpretation of why the United States was involved in those incidents.
Say in Chile, why did the CIA back a coup against the democratically elected president in order to bring Pinochet to power? Or why did the US carpet bomb Laos in the 1960s? Why did Reagan ilegally sell arms to Iran in order to channel the profits to the Contras of Nicaragua, against the wishes of Congress? Why does the United States continue to supply aid to the government of Saudi Arabia, despite Saudi's appalling human rights record? Why is Turkey, with a similar human rights record also a recipient of aid?

Quote:
I wonder what you would be doing right now if we had never got involved so many times. Playing with your computer? Or would we even have computers?


Why is technology dependent on the United States interventionist foreign policy?

And...uh, no I don't think the guy in your photo is Satan...in fact, I'm sure I've seen him on the cover of a U2 album somewhere...


Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite
Yes, a compiled list from www.shitonusa.com z-edge.., cut and pasted by the gizmo ctrl-c of Microsoft's genius Bill Gates.. the page had apparently not been updated with the details and situational information surrounding those events... A great mask for misunderstanding..


Lemonite - I'm not sure if your random comments in this thread indicate that you're not able to discuss the subject in question, or that you don't want to discuss it. The information I posted wasn't copy and pasted from anywhere. But if you're concerned by the "details and situational information" then maybe you could provide that information for us all?
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Old 07-14-2002, 09:30 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
I am really, really embarassed. And ashamed, ashamed that U2 fans could post such ignorance.
what on earth are you implying here?
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Old 07-14-2002, 02:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


There's no need to be either embarrased or ashamed, z edge - a difference of opinion doesn't make either party ignorant. Besides, I'm not sure what bearing being a U2 fan should have on an individuals politics.

No I just expected more from a smarter group of fans and I haven't seen anything this revealing about a member in some time.

Quote:

Please don't make assumptions about my level of knowledge - perhaps you'd like to give your interpretation of why the United States was involved in those incidents.
Say in Chile, why did the CIA back a coup against the democratically elected president in order to bring Pinochet to power? Or why did the US carpet bomb Laos in the 1960s? Why did Reagan ilegally sell arms to Iran in order to channel the profits to the Contras of Nicaragua, against the wishes of Congress? Why does the United States continue to supply aid to the government of Saudi Arabia, despite Saudi's appalling human rights record? Why is Turkey, with a similar human rights record also a recipient of aid?

Once again, you can twist any event in time to your own agenda. But since you didn't get what I was trying to explain earlier in my post (without making assumptions about your level of knowledge) I will try a different level.

Specific information not made available to public, we do not know what has led to these events you list. We don't know how many events or actions have taken place other than the ones you list. The atrocities of the other nations is 100 times worse than what any liberal or group of wackos can attempt to pin on us.

Insignifigant whining and bold proclamations about the USA being evil really holds no water but stands out as antagonistic. TO suggest the USA evil and not even mention an opponent like Iraq who invaded Kuwait and commits genocide on their own children daily is just incendiary.

Quote:
Why is technology dependent on the United States interventionist foreign policy?
Are you really this.......

Technology, no I mentioned NOT technology.

One more time...

If we had no army nor had we done any of the [sic] evil deeds on your precious little list
You would probably either be dead, dressed up like a ninja and not allowed to speak or educate yourself, or you would be a prisoner somewhere.
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Old 07-14-2002, 02:49 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
No I just expected more from a smarter group of fans and I haven't seen anything this revealing about a member in some time.
If your definition of "expecting more" is to expect people to agree with your opinions then of course you'll be disappointed. I'm sure there are U2 fans from right across the political spectrum, from socialist through to conservative, and many in between and beyond those. Surely that's a positive thing, I'd be more concerned if every U2 fan I met had exactly the same political opinions!

Quote:
Specific information not made available to public, we do not know what has led to these events you list. We don't know how many events or actions have taken place other than the ones you list. The atrocities of the other nations is 100 times worse than what any liberal or group of wackos can attempt to pin on us.


Does this mean that your defence of the US is only based on your conviction that the country has not done anything wrong in those cases? It's not based on any factual information? Or if your opinions are based on fact then maybe you'd be willing to explain some of the events I listed above?

Also, I don't believe that simply stating that atrocities have been carried out by many countries is a justification for atrocities committed by the United States.


Quote:
Insignifigant whining and bold proclamations about the USA being evil really holds no water but stands out as antagonistic. TO suggest the USA evil and not even mention an opponent like Iraq who invaded Kuwait and commits genocide on their own children daily is just incendiary.


I don't consider any of the events I referred to to be insignificant. Do you know much about Pinochet's rule in Chile, or events in El Salvador in the 1980, or the effect of the United States involvement in Laos? I'm sure nobody who knows the disastrous impact these events had on the citizens of these countries could dismiss the events as 'insignificant'. And once again - stating that Iraq has committed crimes against its citizens doesn't absolve the US of responsibility for the crimes it has committed against its own and other citizens.

Quote:
If we had no army nor had we done any of the [sic] evil deeds on your precious little list
You would probably either be dead, dressed up like a ninja and not allowed to speak or educate yourself, or you would be a prisoner somewhere.
Again, I'm curious as to why you believe this?
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Old 07-14-2002, 02:54 PM   #41
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Just to add to what I said before - I don't consider the US as a country to be 'evil', I certainly don't consider its citizens to be 'evil'. I believe that some of the actions taken by the government of the US were extremely wrong, although personally I wouldn't choose the word 'evil' to describe them.

I think it should be possible to have a rational discussion of some of the questionable aspects of US foreign policy, that's why I raised those points - not to call the US evil.
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Old 07-14-2002, 04:36 PM   #42
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The Iran Contra Affair.. Interesting.. To be honest.. I love smugglers.. All Powerful Looming Bureaucracy tries to step in and limit one's freedoms.. Meddle in someone's life.. and Smugglers give a nice big F U to this Faceless Commanding Conglomerate.

I still laugh, and can only enjoy the Anger and Spite in the Liberal Prosecutors as they were totally Embarrassed and Idioticized by dear Oliver North... and what is even better is the animosity that still resides even today..


Z's right.. Without US Military Strength and Decision Capability, A particular female might at this moment find herself the Costume designer of Mussolini's sixth homosexual son, garnishing him with flowing sheer wool and organizing his appointment book of the eligible twinks of the Great Bosnian Flatlands.

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Old 07-14-2002, 04:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


If your definition of "expecting more" is to expect people to agree with your opinions then of course you'll be disappointed.
It is not, I never stated that

Quote:


I'm sure there are U2 fans from right across the political spectrum, from socialist through to conservative, and many in between and beyond those.
I believe you are correct on this

Quote:
Surely that's a positive thing, I'd be more concerned if every U2 fan I met had exactly the same political opinions!

Yes, but this is no excuse to stand there waiting for a conservative minded post to appear so you can hurriedly look up some propaganda to post that can only be taken as offensive to certain members and serve no other real purpose.

Quote:
Does this mean that your defence of the US is only based on your conviction that the country has not done anything wrong in those cases?
Don't pretend that you know me or my beliefs.
My experience speaks for itself

Quote:
It's not based on any factual information? Or if your opinions are based on fact then maybe you'd be willing to explain some of the events I listed above?
Look, I'm in the fucking military, okay
Do you think I'm going to tell you everything I know
or anything for that matter?

Quote:
Also, I don't believe that simply stating that atrocities have been carried out by many countries is a justification for atrocities committed by the United States.
Once again, you really don't know what in the hell you are talking about

I don't know where you get your propaganda info from
I don't really care

You do not know the entire story here, just show the "facts" (lol at "facts") that go along with your own distaste for the USA

Quote:
And once again - stating that Iraq has committed crimes against its citizens doesn't absolve the US of responsibility for the crimes it has committed against its own and other citizens.
What the heck are you talking about???

You are saying that we cannot go to war with Iraq and end their regime of terror to their own people as well as their threat to the rest of the world because we had slaves????
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Old 07-14-2002, 04:46 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Just to add to what I said before - I don't consider the US as a country to be 'evil', I certainly don't consider its citizens to be 'evil'. I believe that some of the actions taken by the government of the US were extremely wrong, although personally I wouldn't choose the word 'evil' to describe them.

I think it should be possible to have a rational discussion of some of the questionable aspects of US foreign policy, that's why I raised those points - not to call the US evil.
Well you sure could have fooled me, and others

It would help if you would not "hide" your location where you are from, and as well be a little bold and admit your true feelings rather than post a "cover up" or "clean up" reply like this.
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Old 07-14-2002, 05:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge
Yes, but this is no excuse to stand there waiting for a conservative minded post to appear so you can hurriedly look up some propaganda to post that can only be taken as offensive to certain members and serve no other real purpose.
The one thing I'm noticing in all your replies is that instead of discussing the subject in question (ie US foreign policy) you're limiting your responses to criticism of me for raising the topic in the first place.

No, I don't wait for conservative posts to respond to - I respond whenver I wish to be involved in a discussion here. Why do you believe what I post is "propaganda"? I believe a discussion of US foreign policy serves far more purpose than to be "offensive to certain members" and I certainly don't post with the intention of offending conservatives anymore than I would expect conservatives to post simply to offend liberals.

Quote:
Don't pretend that you know me or my beliefs.
My experience speaks for itself
Look, I'm in the fucking military, okay
Do you think I'm going to tell you everything I know
or anything for that matter?

There's a vast amount of information available freely to anyone who is interested - I'm not asking you to reveal anything you believe should be kept secret. However, I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to believe your arguments are correct simply because you declare them to be so, without providing any evidence.


Quote:
Once again, you really don't know what in the hell you are talking about

I don't know where you get your propaganda info from
I don't really care

Again - why are you attacking me? If you disagree then explain why. If you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about then explain why - don't just hurl insults!

Quote:
You are saying that we cannot go to war with Iraq and end their regime of terror to their own people as well as their threat to the rest of the world because we had slaves????
No, that's not what I'm saying! Personally I am opposed to the US attacking Iraq, but not because the US kept slaves. I was responding to your argument that it's wrong to criticise the US because atrocities have been committed by other countries. That's like saying if Person X killed 10 people and Person Y killed 2 people, we shouldn't criticse Person Y because Person X has committed a worse crime. Yes, other countries have committed crimes, but so has the US - it doesn't make either crime acceptable.

Quote:
It would help if you would not "hide" your location where you are from


1 - why would that help?
2 - "It's all WE can do....." sure tells us a lot about your location, huh?
3 - I'm from the UK. No big conspiracy to "hide" my location ;-)
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