One more > for Family Values???

[anitram]

If the case went to trial, Specter said Craig ``wouldn't be convicted of anything.''

He's absolutely right.

 

[Irvine511]

Hitchens gets a lot of things absolutely right in this article:

[q]So Many Men's Rooms, So Little Time

By Christopher Hitchens
Updated Monday, Sept. 3, 2007, at 12:24 PM ET
I knew it was all over for Sen. Larry Craig when he appeared with his long-suffering wife to say that he wasn't gay. Such moments are now steppingstones on the way to apology, counseling, and rehab, and a case could be made for cutting out the spousal stage of the ritual altogether. Along with a string of votes to establish "don't ask, don't tell" and to prohibit homosexual marriage, Craig leaves as his political legacy the telling phrase "wide stance", which may or may not join "big tent" and "broad church" as an attempt to make the Republican Party seem more "inclusive" than it really is.

But there's actually a chance—a 38 percent chance, to be more precise—that the senator can cop a plea on the charge of hypocrisy. In his study of men who frequent public restrooms in search of sex, Laud Humphreys discovered that 54 percent were married and living with their wives, 38 percent did not consider themselves homosexual or bisexual, and only 14 per cent identified themselves as openly gay. Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Personal Places, a doctoral thesis which was published in 1970, detailed exactly the pattern—of foot-tapping in code, hand-gestures, and other tactics—which has lately been garishly publicized at the Minneapolis-St Paul airport men's room. The word "tearoom" seems to have become archaic, but in all other respects the fidelity to tradition is impressive.

The men interviewed by Humphreys wanted what many men want: a sexual encounter that was quick and easy and didn't involve any wining and dining. Some of the heterosexuals among them had also evolved a tactic for dealing with the cognitive dissonance that was involved. They compensated for their conduct by adopting extreme conservative postures in public. Humphreys, a former Episcopalian priest, came up with the phrase "breastplate of righteousness" to describe this mixture of repression and denial. So, it is quite thinkable that when Sen. Craig claims not to be gay, he is telling what he honestly believes to be the truth.

However, this still leaves a slight mystery. In the 1960s, homosexuality was illegal in general and gay men were forced to cruise in places where (if I can phrase it like this) every man and boy in the world has to come sometime. Today, anyone wanting a swift male caress can book it online or go to a discreet resort. Yet people still persist in haunting the tearoom, where they risk arrest not for their sexuality but for "disorderly conduct." Why should this be?

In my youth, I was a friend of a man named Tom Driberg, a British politician who set the bar very high in these matters. In his memoir, Ruling Passions, he described his "chronic, lifelong, love-hate relationship with lavatories." He could talk by the hour about the variety and marvel of these "public conveniences," as Victorian euphemism had dubbed them. In Britain, they were called "cottages" in gay argot, instead of "tearooms," and an experienced "cottager" knew all the ins and outs, if you will pardon the expression. There was the commodious underground loo in Leicester Square that specialized in those whose passion was for members of the armed forces. There was the one at the Institute of Contemporary Arts, much favored by aesthetes, where on the very foot of the partition, above the 6-inch space, someone had scribbled "beware of limbo dancers." (The graffiti in cottages was all part of the fun: On the toilet wall at Paddington Station was written: "I am 9 inches long and two inches thick. Interested?" Underneath, in different handwriting: "Fascinated, dear, but how big is your dick?") On Clapham Common, the men's toilet had acquired such a lavish reputation for the variety of lurid actions performed within its precincts that, as I once heard it said: "If someone comes in there for a good honest shit, it's like a breath of fresh air."

Perhaps I digress. What Driberg told me was this. The thrills were twofold. First came the exhilaration of danger: the permanent risk of being caught and exposed. Second was the sense of superiority that a double life could give. What bliss it was to enter the House of Commons, bow to the speaker, and take your seat amid the trappings of lawmaking, having five minutes earlier fellated a guardsman (and on one unforgettable occasion, a policeman) in the crapper in St James' Park. Assuming the story about the men's room in Union Station to be true, Sen. Craig could have gone straight from that encounter to the Senate floor in about the same amount of time.

Driberg was a public campaigner for gay rights and carried on as such even after being elevated to the House of Lords (where I am pretty sure he told me there was more going on in the lavatory than most people would guess). But it was with a distinct hint of melancholy that he voted for the successful repeal of the laws criminalizing homosexuality. "I rather miss the old days," he would say, wistfully. Well, the law legalized homosexual behavior only "in private," so he could (and did) continue to court danger in public places. The House of Lords actually debated the question of whether a stall in a public lavatory constituted "privacy," the reason being that in Britain you have to put money in a slot in order to enter such a place, and this could be held to constitute rent. Private Eye printed a poem about the learned exchange on this between two elderly peers of the realm: "Said Lord Arran to Lord Dilhorne, a penny/ should entitle me to any/ thing I may choose privately to do. Except you."

Thus, without overthinking it or attempting too much by way of amateur psychiatry, I think it's safe to assume that many tearoom traders have a need, which they only imperfectly understand, to get caught. And this may be truest of all of those who are armored with "the breastplate of righteousness." Next time you hear some particularly moralizing speech, set your watch. You won't have to wait long before the man who made it is found, crouched awkwardly yet ecstatically while the cistern drips and the roar of the flush maddens him like wine.[/q]

 

[joyfulgirl]

Gotta love Hitchens. Or hate him. I have a love-hate thing with him. But yeah, he nails it here.

 

[yolland]

Craig Children Asked Him About Incident

Associated Press, Sept. 4

WASHINGTON — Two of Sen. Larry Craig's children said Tuesday they questioned him explicitly about "what exactly happened in that bathroom" where he was arrested in a sex sting and believe his assertions that he isn't gay.

Michael Craig said they asked their father about the June 11 incident at the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport, which led to the Idaho Republican's resignation last week after it became public, because "we were shocked" at media accounts of the incident, he said. In an interview with ABC's Good Morning America, Michael Craig said his father was simply "a victim of circumstance" and "in the wrong place at the wrong time...We've known him our whole life. He has been so trustworthy to us, so honest to us, that we believe him."

Larry Craig adopted Michael and his two siblings after marrying their mother, the former Suzanne Scott, in 1983. Craig has worked in the Senate to promote adoption.

Among the questions he and his sister Shae Howell said they asked their father was "what exactly happened in that bathroom," and they tried to "break down definitions of what words mean," including semantic definitions of sex, Michael Craig said. "Maybe it wasn't sexual intercourse, but were these sexual actions? Were there sexual feelings? All these terrible things that were said in the media, we asked all those tough questions," Michael Craig said. "I don't want to have an answer based on a legality or technicality or semantics of the words. We wanted to know exactly what happened and after speaking to our dad, we know exactly what happened."

He said that it would make no difference to them if Craig was gay, though they "absolutely" believed Craig's assertion that he wasn't. "It would matter to my mom, but gay or straight, that part doesn't matter," Michael Craig said. "It was a matter of an accusation of a lewd, immoral, illegal act."

He said that by pleading guilty, his father "was just trying to resolve a little problem and he thought it was probably something resulting in something fairly minor. I think he knows he screwed up." Standing next to their father in Boise on Saturday when he announced his resignation was "tough," Michael Craig said, but "we are family and we stay together through good times and bad." Another sibling, Jay Craig, was said to be out of the country and not available.

The family is angry that so many of his father's colleagues on Capitol Hill had failed to support him in the scandal. They "made their decision and formed their opinion about it without even talking to my dad," said Shae Howell. "So that was a little frustrating and disappointing too."

 

[joyfulgirl]

I feel bad for the kids. I still think their father is closeted gay.

 

[martha]

The family is angry that so many of his father's colleagues on Capitol Hill had failed to support him in the scandal. They "made their decision and formed their opinion about it without even talking to my dad," said Shae Howell. "So that was a little frustrating and disappointing too."

I'm sure this is disappointing. But can't surprise them that Republicans would abandon anyone who even seems like he might be gay.

 

[diamond]

I feel bad for the kids. I still think their father is closeted gay.

Agreed, and I think he's still lying.

He's quite gay but ashamed for whatever reason.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

He's quite gay but ashamed for whatever reason.

 

[BVS]

He's quite gay but ashamed for whatever reason.

For "whatever reason"? I think someone who devotes a whole thread to letting god turn you straight, would understand a little bit as to why someone might be ashamed. Is it possible that you and others who forced people into the closet don't realize what you do?

 

[anitram]

For "whatever reason"? I think someone who devotes a whole thread to letting god turn you straight, would understand a little bit as to why someone might be ashamed. Is it possible that you and others who forced people into the closet don't realize what you do?

Why would they? They love the sinner, but hate the sin, remember?

 

[martha]

Why would they? They love the sinner, but hate the sin, remember?

That's right. Because Jesus says it's OK to hate.

 

[Irvine511]

He's quite gay but ashamed for whatever reason.

probably due to the culture of shame created and maintained by churches and the Republican party and the specific legislation authored and championed by Craig himself.

oh, the irony.

 

[SeattleVertigo]

The latest breaking news this evening is that Craig is reconsidering his decision to resign.

Yeah, that's a real show of strength. Was confused about whether or not to plead guilty, is confused about whether or not to resign....

This guy just loves to make himself fodder for the late night comics.

 

[diamond]

This fellow is worse than Bill Clinton.

dbs

 

[U2isthebest]

I don't want to speculate too much when there's no hard evidence from either side; but it seems to me that people who shout the loudest about morality and "values" are usually desperately trying to cover up the lack of them in their own lives.

 

[Irvine511]

The latest breaking news this evening is that Craig is reconsidering his decision to resign.

Yeah, that's a real show of strength. Was confused about whether or not to plead guilty, is confused about whether or not to resign....

This guy just loves to make himself fodder for the late night comics.

wow -- the Democrarts and the comics are going to have a brand new Alberto Gonzales to kick around for the rest of the month.

 

[diamond]

The first red flags were during his staged press conference with medicated wife in tow was when he stated that he had an "intention" to resign by the end of the month and that "he did nothing wrong".

This guy's a train wreck, and I'm glad that the majority of the GOP leadership is distancing themselves from him.

His legacy will be a joke and an embarrassment for future generations.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

This guy's a train wreck, and I'm glad that the majority of the GOP leadership is distancing themselves from him.

You'd want to distance yourself too if you were trying to ignore the fact that you helped cause it.

 

[diamond]

"Im not Gay"

 

[Irvine511]

His legacy will be a joke and an embarrassment for future generations.

i'm hopeful that something positive will come out of this.

i'm hopeful that straight men like David Vitter or drunk drivers like Kevin Brady will either be thrown under the bus by the Republicans like Craig was, or that gay sex will be treated exactly the same as straight sex by the Republicans. all three men did very bad things -- though i think we can all say that driving drunk is, by far, the most serious offense -- and all three men should suffer the same consequences. though, right now, it does look like the GOP is playing a very public game of "smear the queer."

i'm also hopeful that we'll all realize what a ridiculous waste of resources it is to send undercover officers into bathrooms to tap their toes. now, everyone's going to be double-checking just how wide their stance is, and it seems to me that this is absurd as well.

i also hope that everyone realizes how much homophobia hurts everyone. there's no question, really, that Craig is a homosexual. i don't think he's gay, because that would require some courage on his part, but it's totally fair to say that he's attracted to members of the same sex and seeks out sexual encounters with them. and it's the pathology of homophobia, the legacy of homophobia, the atmosphere of policies authored and championed by bigots like Craig and the rest of the Republican party that leads to behavior such as this. in a less homophobic world, in a world where two men can comfortably go on dates and not feel at all uncomfortable and ashamed, we'll have less of this closeted behavior to "police."

 

[joyfulgirl]

and all three men should suffer the same consequences. though, right now, it does look like the GOP is playing a very public game of "smear the queer."

i'm also hopeful that we'll all realize what a ridiculous waste of resources it is to send undercover officers into bathrooms to tap their toes.

A colleague and I were just 5 minutes ago talking about both of these very things. She told me about a friend of hers (a very out gay man) who was solicited by a policeman in the mall bathroom (the very one I mentioned earlier in this thread), and was arrested. When he showed up in court, there were 4 other men there for the same reason, with the same cop. The judge threw all 4 cases out on the spot because they had all obviously been entrapped by the same cop.

 

[diamond]

i'm hopeful that something positive will come out of this.

i'm hopeful that straight men like David Vitter or drunk drivers like Kevin Brady will either be thrown under the bus by the Republicans like Craig was, or that gay sex will be treated exactly the same as straight sex by the Republicans. all three men did very bad things -- though i think we can all say that driving drunk is, by far, the most serious offense -- and all three men should suffer the same consequences. though, right now, it does look like the GOP is playing a very public game of "smear the queer."

i'm also hopeful that we'll all realize what a ridiculous waste of resources it is to send undercover officers into bathrooms to tap their toes. now, everyone's going to be double-checking just how wide their stance is, and it seems to me that this is absurd as well.

i also hope that everyone realizes how much homophobia hurts everyone. there's no question, really, that Craig is a homosexual. i don't think he's gay, because that would require some courage on his part, but it's totally fair to say that he's attracted to members of the same sex and seeks out sexual encounters with them. and it's the pathology of homophobia, the legacy of homophobia, the atmosphere of policies authored and championed by bigots like Craig and the rest of the Republican party that leads to behavior such as this. in a less homophobic world, in a world where two men can comfortably go on dates and not feel at all uncomfortable and ashamed, we'll have less of this closeted behavior to "police."

Vitter was never arrested, and before his perversions surfaced he got right w his wife and God.

Craig is a closeted Gay and also peeks in bathroom stalls and hits on men as long as he can get away with it. But alas he's been caught and now he is showing:

- a dis respect for law that he was elected to uphold
- irresponsibility in not admitting guilt
-lying to protect his name to his closet allies the same way Bill Clinton did until the semen dress turned up.

The hurried pre arrainged gulity plea of a lesser charge is the semen dress in this debacle.

The schelp now is trying to undo the mess that he created and also refuses to take responsiblity for.

I would respect the guy if he were more of a Jim Kolbe of Az, an openly Gay Republican, that served our state well but this guy is a complete weasley coward, and gives all men Gay or Straight a very bad name.

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

Craig is a closeted Gay and also peeks in bathroom stalls and hits on men as long as he can get away with it. But alas he's been caught and now he is showing:

- a dis respect for law that he was elected to uphold
- irresponsibility in not admitting guilt
-lying to protect his name to his closet allies the same way Bill Clinton did until the semen dress turned up.

The hurried pre arrainged gulity plea of a lesser charge is the semen dress in this debacle.

The schelp now is trying to undo the mess that he created and also refuses to take responsiblity for.

I would respect the guy if he were more of a Jim Kolbe of Az, an openly Gay Republican, that served our state well but this guy is a complete weasley coward, and gives all men Gay or Straight a very bad name.

dbs

But the bigger picture here is the irony. You said he is closeted "for whatever reasons," while everyone here has pointed out the exact reasons, which you have skipped over in the entire discussion, even though it's really the big picture.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

WASHINGTON (CNN) – Embattled Sen. Larry Craig was one of Bill Clinton's fiercest critics during the Senate’s 1999 impeachment trial, but the former president told CNN's Larry King Wednesday he takes no pleasure in the Idaho Republican's current situation and is "pulling" for Craig and his family.

"Honestly, didn't feel any great joy," Clinton said in an interview to air tonight at 9 p.m. ET. "When it was going on I knew that a lot of them were outed for hypocrisy before this."

Clinton added, "One of the things I did to get through that was to think hard about times in my past when I had judged people too harshly because they had a problem I didn't have. And I promised myself I'd never do that again, and I'm trying to keep that promise."

Craig was arrested in a restroom in June at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport on suspicion of making sexual advances to an undercover police officer in the next stall. He pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct in August, but denies he was engaging in lewd behavior. Clinton offered a sympathetic perspective on the situation.

"I just know right now he and his family have got to be hurting and I think the rest of us should just be pulling for their personal lives and the politics of this will play itself out," he added.

Asked what he makes of people who criticize activities they do themselves, the former president said, " I think maybe it's subconscious self hatred, I don't know, maybe it’s a desire to avoid being caught, maybe its just a desire to deal with what the perceive to be the social and political realities they find themselves in."

 

[diamond]

Yes, yes Bill Clinton now is the Dalai Lama of Virtue and Compassion, *after*getting caught.

Re Craig's comments during the Clinton/Monica perjury scandal, at the time I thought Craig odd when he said " Bill Clinton is a very very bad and naughty boy".

I mused to myself "ok, this guy is weird" and later found out he was a "conservative" from Idaho, and I marked it mentality (in 1999) as the fellow being a bit unbalanced, and never thought of it again until now.

dbs

 

[Diemen]

Ah yes, diamond, the diviner of morality.

I'm sure that in 1999, when you had this guy all figured out, you were the beacon of morality yourself.

 

[martha]

Why is Clinton being brought up? Did I miss something? Did he deny he was heterosexual or something?

 

[indra]

Re Craig's comments during the Clinton/Monica perjury scandal, at the time I thought Craig odd when he said " Bill Clinton is a very very bad and naughty boy".

I mused to myself "ok, this guy is weird" and later found out he was a "conservative" from Idaho, and I marked it mentality (in 1999) as the fellow being a bit unbalanced, and never thought of it again until now.

dbs

Oh diamond, of course you could tell he was weird -- he's a conservative. They're all weird.

 

[phillyfan26]

Yes, yes Bill Clinton now is the Dalai Lama of Virtue and Compassion, *after*getting caught.

Re Craig's comments during the Clinton/Monica perjury scandal, at the time I thought Craig odd when he said " Bill Clinton is a very very bad and naughty boy".

I mused to myself "ok, this guy is weird" and later found out he was a "conservative" from Idaho, and I marked it mentality (in 1999) as the fellow being a bit unbalanced, and never thought of it again until now.

dbs

Do you still not realize the big picture? The problems with homophobia that resulted in this? The reasons why he is closeted? You continue to refuse to address this point.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Why is Clinton being brought up? Did I miss something? Did he deny he was heterosexual or something?

Did you miss this little jewel?
"A Nasty, Bad Naughty Boy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y35lUuup8f8