One more > for Family Values???

[Irvine511]

I just don't get the guys that assult people in toilets. Do they honestly think taking a swipe at another man's junk is gonna turn into everyone getting their freak on in the toilet? lol

Also, im not 100% sure what the story is here? Did he actually touch another man in the toot? Or did he get an eyeful when "picking up a piece of paper" (ewww on that who would touch paper on a toilet floor?)
i canna read between the lines?

this article in Slate does a good job explaining this stuff.

it also sounds like the Senator was guilty of not very much, so wtf did he plead guilty? it also sounds like police officers are a bit overeager with this stuff and certainly border on entrapment -- remember the George Michael thing? he said the police officer was looking at him and masturbating with the whole "come hither" look, and when George approached, he slapped a pair of cuffs on him.

these "vice patrols" are dodgey to begin with. i don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to enter a toilet and have it free of public sex, but so many of these cases seem to involve a sort of frat boy glee, and they are certainly much harder on two gay guys than they'd be on two hetero teenagers, that it all still stinks of prejudice. not that there aren't legitimately guilty parties, but like trolling for Johns in red light districts, i think my tax dollars could be better spent somewhere else.

 

[diamond]

The Senator approached the under cover officer by peeking through the cracks of his stall a few times.

The Senator was on the hunt for some action, and just as if a Senator was soliciting a hooker, and were to get busted-this is the same difference.

He got caught red handed and needs to leave office.

dbs

 

[diamond]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/30/craig.arrest/index.html?iref=topnews

Support for the serial pervert is is diminishing.

dbs

 

[deep]

Actually if this were a male on female solicitation it would not stand up.


When the police use female police decoys they get much more evidence than just looking at fake street walkers or tapping their feet or I guess honking car horns or flashing head lights, etc.

The John has to verbally offer to engage in sex.

I guess if Craig said something, or if he exposed himself that would be sufficient.

 

[diamond]

Actually if this were a male on female solicitation it would not stand up.




I guess if Craig said something, or if he exposed himself that would be sufficient.

He did say plenty non verbally, where most people and experts recognize that 90% of communication is non verbal.

dbs

 

[deep]

If people were always convicted for non-verbal acts,
how much time would you be doing?

 

[diamond]

If ppl were convicted for what they were thinking how much time would you be serving?

dbs

 

[deep]

I don't support it

but you seem to

so it is a question you should consider.

 

[diamond]

I don't support it

but you seem to

so it is a question you should consider.

Well you couldn't unless you wanted to be locked up for a very long time.



dbs

 

[yolland]

I don't get the impression that verbal offers are typically involved in this sort of thing at all, so short of saying 'only if you catch people in the act,' I'm not sure how else you'd go about policing stuff like this.

Dunno...I can see Irvine's point that this is arguably a waste of policing funds and manpower--we're really talking nuisance issues here, not security issues. On the other hand, like he said, "I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to enter a toilet and have it free of public sex" either.

 

[diamond]

"I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to enter a toilet and have it free of public sex" either.

I think this is the crux of it, plus consevatives hold their leaders to a higher standard.

In other words don't be crusing on our tax dollar time, and if you do and get caught, please step aside, as we didn't elect you to represent the ppl this way.

It's an accountability issue.



dbs

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

i'd probably do the same thing as Tucker.

Really?

An unwanted sexual advance is an unwanted sexual advance. In Tucker's case, assuming he's straight-would he ever react in that way to an unwanted sexual advance of a similar nature from a woman? So what is really behind his rage and dealing with it in that way?

Maybe Dan and Joe were just laughing at the thought of Tucker Carlson being able to physically overpower anyone, I don't know. I expect more from Dan Abrams other than frat boy sort of nonsense.

 

[Irvine511]

I think this is the crux of it, plus consevatives hold their leaders to a higher standard.

In other words don't be crusing on our tax dollar time, and if you do and get caught, please step aside, as we didn't elect you to represent the ppl this way.

It's an accountability issue.



dbs

erm, while i admire your attempt to spin this event as some sort of proof that "conservatives" are more virtuous than liberals, the fact remains that it's "conservatives" who seem to need all the ethics lessons they can get.

party of morality my ass.

 

[indra]

plus consevatives hold their leaders to a higher standard.

dbs

Hahahahaha!

Good one, diamond! You are a real cut up.

 

[Irvine511]

Really?

An unwanted sexual advance is an unwanted sexual advance. In Tucker's case, assuming he's straight-would he ever react in that way to an unwanted sexual advance of a similar nature from a woman? So what is really behind his rage and dealing with it in that way?

Maybe Dan and Joe were just laughing at the thought of Tucker Carlson being able to physically overpower anyone, I don't know. I expect more from Dan Abrams other than frat boy sort of nonsense.

in Prague late one night, i once had a woman touch my crotch as she slipped her hand into my jacket pocket -- it was a pickpocketing technique -- and i grabbed her by the shoulders and shoved her across the street. she didn't fall to the ground, but the message was sent and i was left alone. if a man were to make a similar unwanted advance on me in a public place, i'd like to think i'd just walk away, but if i felt threatened in any way, like i did in Prague, then yes, i'd use a degree of physical force.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

GLAAD Calls on Tucker Carlson, MSNBC to Apologize for Insensitive Remarks Condoning Violence

August 29, 2007

New York, Wednesday, August 29 - The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) today called on Tucker Carlson, NBC News and MSNBC to apologize for remarks made on Tuesday night that appear to condone violent assault.

On the Tuesday, Aug. 28 edition of "MSNBC Live with Dan Abrams" MSNBC host Tucker Carlson referenced an incident from his past when he was the recipient of an unwanted advance from another man. Carlson told program host (and MSNBC General Manager) Dan Abrams and fellow MSNBC host Joe Scarborough that after being "bothered" by a man in a restroom in a Washington, D.C., mall, Carlson returned "with someone [he] knew and grabbed the guy... and hit him against the stall with his head, actually. And then the cops came and arrested him." Abrams and Scarborough are seen chuckling throughout Carlson's telling of the story.

Earlier today, GLAAD called Abrams' office to discuss NBC News and MSNBC's response to Carlson's behavior. Abrams' office responded with an e-mailed statement attributed to Carlson, which read:

Let me be clear about an incident I referred to on MSNBC last night: In the mid-1980s, while I was a high school student, a man physically grabbed me in a men's room in Washington, DC. I yelled, pulled away from him and ran out of the room. Twenty-five minutes later, a friend of mine and I returned to the men's room. The man was still there, presumably waiting to do to someone else what he had done to me. My friend and I seized the man and held him until a security guard arrived.

Several bloggers have characterized this is a sort of gay bashing. That's absurd, and an insult to anybody who has fought back against an unsolicited sexual attack. I wasn't angry with the man because he was gay. I was angry because he assaulted me.

The statement is not only a failed attempt to justify Carlson's advocacy of violence, but also changes key details of the previous night's on-air story. First, Carlson does not repeat his assertion that he "hit him against the stall with his head," instead changing his story to say that he "seized the man and held him down until a security guard arrived." The security guard element is also newly invented. In his on-air statement, Carlson said that "the cops came and arrested him."

"Carlson's story was difficult to watch on two levels," said GLAAD Senior Director of Media Programs Rashad Robinson. "To see someone brag on national television of returning, with an accomplice, to the scene of an unwanted advance to violently attack the person who made it is incredibly disturbing. But it was also hard to watch because of the sheer absurdity of most of what Carlson was saying."

"Whether Abrams and Scarborough were laughing with Carlson or laughing at him, the fact remains that MSNBC and NBC News have some explaining to do about their standards and practices," Robinson said. "They need to explain whether bragging about physically assaulting a man in response to an unwanted advance is appropriate on-air behavior for one of their employees, and whether laughter by two others is an appropriate on-air response."



GLSEN Outraged by MSNBC Host Tucker Carlson's Comments About Assaulting Gay Man


GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, is outraged and horrified by MSNBC host Tucker Carlson's revelation Tuesday night insinuating that as a high school student he once assaulted a man for a perceived sexual advance. GLSEN is calling on Carlson to issue an apology and disavow violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people as reprehensible and unacceptable.

"Tucker Carlson's casual acknowledgment perpetrating such a violent act is shocking and sends a dangerous message to youth that physical assault based on actual or perceived sexual orientation is acceptable," said GLSEN Deputy Executive Director Eliza Byard. "Countless lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) youth are bullied, harassed and assaulted at school every day. MSNBC and Carlson need to make it clear that violence in this case was an unacceptable reaction."

More than a third of LGBT students (37.8%) reported being physically harassed (being pushed, shoved, etc.) at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation in GLSEN's 2005 National School Climate Survey. Additionally, 17.6% of LGBT students reported being physically assaulted (punched, kicked or injured with a weapon) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation.

To watch the clip of Carlson's comments or learn more about the incident and others like it, visit Media Matters for America at www.mediamatters.org.

About GLSEN GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, is the leading national education organization focused on ensuring safe schools for all lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students. Established nationally in 1995, GLSEN envisions a world in which every child learns to respect and accept all people, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression. For more information on GLSEN's educational resources, public policy agenda, student organizing programs or development initiatives, visit www.glsen.org.

 

[Bluer White]

As the officer said, there wasn't even a piece of paper on the floor.

Do you have a square to spare ???

 

[indra]

The Senator approached the under cover officer by peeking through the cracks of his stall a few times.

dbs

Wouldn't any normal person just say "what the fuck do you think you're doing?!" and that would be the end of that? I know I sure as hell would if I saw someone peering through the cracks in the stall.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

if a man were to make a similar unwanted advance on me in a public place, i'd like to think i'd just walk away, but if i felt threatened in any way, like i did in Prague, then yes, i'd use a degree of physical force.

The woman you described, well you were protecting your property and person. Tucker says he was "bothered". When exactly does a sexual advance become a physical threat? Couldn't he just say he wasn't interested and walk away? There was nothing said that the man was aggressive or violent towards him. He was in high school so I suppose his age and maturity were a factor. His retelling of the tale frankly reeks of bragging in a disturbing way.

 

[diamond]

Wouldn't any normal person just say "what the fuck do you think you're doing?!" and that would be the end of that? I know I sure as hell would if I saw someone peering through the cracks in the stall.

Not an officer trying to enforce the law.

Maybe you should take a look at the law, and if you don't like it you and your cohorts in Minn should rally to try and change it

609.746 INTERFERENCE WITH PRIVACY.
Subdivision 1. Surreptitious intrusion; observation device. (a) A person is guilty of
a gross misdemeanor who:
(1) enters upon another's property;
(2) surreptitiously gazes, stares, or peeps in the window or any other aperture of a house or
place of dwelling of another; and
(3) does so with intent to intrude upon or interfere with the privacy of a member of the
household.
(b) A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who:
(1) enters upon another's property;
(2) surreptitiously installs or uses any device for observing, photographing, recording,
amplifying, or broadcasting sounds or events through the window or any other aperture of a house
or place of dwelling of another; and
(3) does so with intent to intrude upon or interfere with the privacy of a member of the
household.
(c) A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who:
(1) surreptitiously gazes, stares, or peeps in the window or other aperture of a sleeping
room in a hotel, as defined in section 327.70, subdivision 3, a tanning booth, or other place
where a reasonable person would have an expectation of privacy and has exposed or is likely to
expose their intimate parts, as defined in section 609.341, subdivision 5, or the clothing covering
the immediate area of the intimate parts; and
(2) does so with intent to intrude upon or interfere with the privacy of the occupant.
(d) A person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor who:
(1) surreptitiously installs or uses any device for observing, photographing, recording,
amplifying, or broadcasting sounds or events through the window or other aperture of a sleeping
room in a hotel, as defined in section 327.70, subdivision 3, a tanning booth, or other place
where a reasonable person would have an expectation of privacy and has exposed or is likely to
expose their intimate parts, as defined in section 609.341, subdivision 5, or the clothing covering
the immediate area of the intimate parts; and
(2) does so with intent to intrude upon or interfere with the privacy of the occupant.
(e) A person is guilty of a felony and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than
two years or to payment of a fine of not more than $5,000, or both, if the person:
(1) violates this subdivision after a previous conviction under this subdivision or section
609.749; or
(2) violates this subdivision against a minor under the age of 18, knowing or having reason
to know that the minor is present.
(f) Paragraphs (b) and (d) do not apply to law enforcement officers or corrections
investigators, or to those acting under their direction, while engaged in the performance of their
lawful duties. Paragraphs (c) and (d) do not apply to conduct in: (1) a medical facility; or (2) a
commercial establishment if the owner of the establishment has posted conspicuous signs warning
that the premises are under surveillance by the owner or the owner's employees.
Subd. 2.[Repealed, 1993 c 326 art 2 s 34]
Subd. 3.[Repealed, 1993 c 326 art 2 s 34]
History: 1979 c 258 s 19; 1987 c 307 s 4; 1989 c 261 s 6; 1992 c 571 art 6 s 14;

 

[CTU2fan]

GLAAD Calls on Tucker Carlson, MSNBC to Apologize for Insensitive Remarks Condoning Violence

August 29, 2007

New York, Wednesday, August 29 - The Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) today called on Tucker Carlson, NBC News and MSNBC to apologize for remarks made on Tuesday night that appear to condone violent assault.

On the Tuesday, Aug. 28 edition of "MSNBC Live with Dan Abrams" MSNBC host Tucker Carlson referenced an incident from his past when he was the recipient of an unwanted advance from another man. Carlson told program host (and MSNBC General Manager) Dan Abrams and fellow MSNBC host Joe Scarborough that after being "bothered" by a man in a restroom in a Washington, D.C., mall, Carlson returned "with someone [he] knew and grabbed the guy... and hit him against the stall with his head, actually. And then the cops came and arrested him." Abrams and Scarborough are seen chuckling throughout Carlson's telling of the story.

Earlier today, GLAAD called Abrams' office to discuss NBC News and MSNBC's response to Carlson's behavior. Abrams' office responded with an e-mailed statement attributed to Carlson, which read:

Let me be clear about an incident I referred to on MSNBC last night: In the mid-1980s, while I was a high school student, a man physically grabbed me in a men's room in Washington, DC. I yelled, pulled away from him and ran out of the room. Twenty-five minutes later, a friend of mine and I returned to the men's room. The man was still there, presumably waiting to do to someone else what he had done to me. My friend and I seized the man and held him until a security guard arrived.

Several bloggers have characterized this is a sort of gay bashing. That's absurd, and an insult to anybody who has fought back against an unsolicited sexual attack. I wasn't angry with the man because he was gay. I was angry because he assaulted me.

The statement is not only a failed attempt to justify Carlson's advocacy of violence, but also changes key details of the previous night's on-air story. First, Carlson does not repeat his assertion that he "hit him against the stall with his head," instead changing his story to say that he "seized the man and held him down until a security guard arrived." The security guard element is also newly invented. In his on-air statement, Carlson said that "the cops came and arrested him."

"Carlson's story was difficult to watch on two levels," said GLAAD Senior Director of Media Programs Rashad Robinson. "To see someone brag on national television of returning, with an accomplice, to the scene of an unwanted advance to violently attack the person who made it is incredibly disturbing. But it was also hard to watch because of the sheer absurdity of most of what Carlson was saying."

"Whether Abrams and Scarborough were laughing with Carlson or laughing at him, the fact remains that MSNBC and NBC News have some explaining to do about their standards and practices," Robinson said. "They need to explain whether bragging about physically assaulting a man in response to an unwanted advance is appropriate on-air behavior for one of their employees, and whether laughter by two others is an appropriate on-air response."



GLSEN Outraged by MSNBC Host Tucker Carlson's Comments About Assaulting Gay Man


GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, is outraged and horrified by MSNBC host Tucker Carlson's revelation Tuesday night insinuating that as a high school student he once assaulted a man for a perceived sexual advance. GLSEN is calling on Carlson to issue an apology and disavow violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people as reprehensible and unacceptable.

"Tucker Carlson's casual acknowledgment perpetrating such a violent act is shocking and sends a dangerous message to youth that physical assault based on actual or perceived sexual orientation is acceptable," said GLSEN Deputy Executive Director Eliza Byard. "Countless lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) youth are bullied, harassed and assaulted at school every day. MSNBC and Carlson need to make it clear that violence in this case was an unacceptable reaction."

More than a third of LGBT students (37.8%) reported being physically harassed (being pushed, shoved, etc.) at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation in GLSEN's 2005 National School Climate Survey. Additionally, 17.6% of LGBT students reported being physically assaulted (punched, kicked or injured with a weapon) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation.

To watch the clip of Carlson's comments or learn more about the incident and others like it, visit Media Matters for America at www.mediamatters.org.

About GLSEN GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, is the leading national education organization focused on ensuring safe schools for all lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students. Established nationally in 1995, GLSEN envisions a world in which every child learns to respect and accept all people, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression. For more information on GLSEN's educational resources, public policy agenda, student organizing programs or development initiatives, visit www.glsen.org.

See I kind of think this is off-base. If a guy were to just randomly grab a woman and she responded with force there'd be no outrage, other than at the guy for being a perv and trying to cop a cheap feel. Assuming Carlson is recounting the situation accurately I don't see it as a gay/straight issue at all, rather a harassment/sexual assault issue. He is a coward for running and getting one of his boys and them going back in and double-teaming the guy though.

It's one thing to flirt/come on to somebody, it's another to physically grab them.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

He went back afterwards to bash his head against the stall or whatever he did (his story changed), so it was not a spontaneous defense.

MSNBC reaired the segment twice the following day and left out his little assault claim. So why did they do that?

 

[indra]

Not an officer trying to enforce the law.

Sounds a lot more like an officer trying to entrap someone to me. That officer should act like a person using the restroom for it's intended purpose, not like someone cruising for sex. And if he had done so, it would have gone no further. It just seems really sleazy -- of the police as well as anyone arrested.

But I'm not going to argue with you any more because it's pointless. So just go on feeling smugly superior. (it's not true, of course, but it seems to make you feel good)

 

[diamond]

Sounds a lot more like an officer trying to entrap someone to me. That officer should act like a person using the restroom for it's intended purpose, not like someone cruising for sex. And if he had done so, it would have gone no further. It just seems really sleazy -- of the police as well as anyone arrested.

But I'm not going to argue with you any more because it's pointless. So just go on feeling smugly superior. (it's not true, of course, but it seems to make you feel good)

The officer did, he was sitting quietly in his stall when the Senator started peeking in 2-3 times thru the cracks, I don't think you've read the police report.

and thank u for your kind words

dbs

 

[deep]

Ok,

I just read the six page transcript.

And Craig never admits anything.

And the officer tries several times to coax him into it.



I really believe if he got an attorney they would not have even charged him.

 

[diamond]

Ok,





I really believe if he got an attorney they would not have even charged him.

That's fine, but he didn't out of a gulity conscience or he didn't want to draw attention to the event as he was embarrassed/indignant and after counseling w/an attorney he chose to enter a plea trying to make it go away-but it backfired.

Now it's time to face the music.

We call this "accountability".

dbs

 

[deep]

Bob Allen is a different situation

Florida State Representative Accused of Offering to Perform Oral Sex Claims Innocence

Thursday , July 12, 2007

AP


TITUSVILLE, Fla. —
A Republican state lawmaker charged with offering to perform oral sex for $20 on an undercover male police officer vowed Thursday to defend himself in court and said he would not resign from office.

"I am filing a not guilty plea. I am vigorously going to fight this," state Rep. Bob Allen, a co-chair of Republican presidential candidate John McCain's campaign in Florida, said at a news conference. "I am not resigning my office because the people elected me and want me to do a good job. I am going to do a good job for them in finishing this term."

Allen called his arrest "an ugly and unpleasant situation that has been thrust on me and my family." The lawmaker had sponsored a failed bill that would have tightened the state's prohibition on public sex.

He choked up when he thanked backers who had contacted him to offer their support. He warned people not to jump to conclusions about what happened but said he could not offer any details about the arrest because of his legal strategy. Allen is married and has a teenage daughter.

"It is not true. It is inaccurate and therefore, it's not guilty," Allen said.

Republican Party of Florida Chairman Jim Greer said the matter would be addressed in a timely and appropriate matter.

"While this is an extremely serious matter, the House of Representatives and the judiciary system have established a process to deal with situations of this nature," Greer said in a statement.

However, House Speaker Marco Rubio said in a statement that because the charge against Allen is a misdemeanor, not a felony, "the House rules don't provide for a specific response in the event that he is found to be guilty."

"The charge against Rep. Allen is serious," Rubio said. "We will continue to monitor the situation and take appropriate steps if necessary."


"It just seems sad and tragic," Gov. Charlie Crist said Thursday when asked in Miami about Allen's arrest.

Veteran's Memorial Park was under surveillance when Allen was seen coming in and out of a restroom three times, said police Lt. Todd Hutchinson. Allen, 48, then approached an undercover officer and was arrested.

He has been charged with solicitation for prostitution, which has a maximum penalty of one year in jail. Brevard County jail officials said Allen posted a $500 bond.

While being transported to jail, Allen told WFTV Channel 9 that the situation was "a very big misunderstanding."

Allen was elected to the Florida House in 2000. He was chairman of the House Committee on Energy.

Allen was named in March as one of six co-chairs for McCain's Florida campaign.

 

[deep]

Bob Allen is a different situation

"It just seems sad and tragic," Gov. Charlie Crist said Thursday when asked in Miami about Allen's arrest.

Veteran's Memorial Park was under surveillance when Allen was seen coming in and out of a restroom three times, said police Lt. Todd Hutchinson. Allen, 48, then approached an undercover officer and was arrested.

He has been charged with solicitation for prostitution, which has a maximum penalty of one year in jail. Brevard County jail officials said Allen posted a $500 bond.

Republican Party of Florida Chairman Jim Greer said the matter would be addressed in a timely and appropriate matter.

"While this is an extremely serious matter, the House of Representatives and the judiciary system have established a process to deal with situations of this nature," Greer said in a statement.

However, House Speaker Marco Rubio said in a statement that because the charge against Allen is a misdemeanor, not a felony, "the House rules don't provide for a specific response in the event that he is found to be guilty."

We call this "accountability".

dbs

House Speaker Marco Rubio said in a statement that because the charge against Allen is a misdemeanor, not a felony, "the House rules don't provide for a specific response in the event that he is found to be guilty."

 

[diamond]

House Speaker Marco Rubio said in a statement that because the charge against Allen is a misdemeanor, not a felony, "the House rules don't provide for a specific response in the event that he is found to be guilty."

Who cares if it's a felony or not.

The majority of the people who elected would want him to leave office over this.

That he chooses to fight this with legal manuevering makes him not want to face the music, and is even more shameful.

If you want to defend him over this behavior, knock yourself out, I'm glad you're no longer a registered Republican (if you are you shouldn't be-you're supporting Hilary) and I'm glad you don't have kids.

 

[deep]

This guy Allen, I believe is gulity.

He offered the decoy $20 to perform oral sex on the officer.


As for you saying

'We' call this accountability

It seems the Republicans are not part of that 'We".

So who is included in your 'We' ?



I think there is enough there for Allen to be held to account.

There is not much there for Mr. Craig.


So again the GOP are frauds,