One more > for Family Values???

[martha]

Senator Wide Stance is as guilty as a straight peeping tom who would be in a girl's bathroom in the next stall making unwanted advances, or outside of a kitchen window salivating at a woman.

It's not rocket science ppl.
Keep your feelings from clouding your judgement.

I'm done here.

dbs

Were you as hostile to Sen. Craig when he was voting for anti-gay marriage laws, or voting to decimate the environment?

 

[joyfulgirl]

i mostly agree with you -- but i also think that there are some of us in here who aren't mature enough to have a rational discussion on male sexuality especially when we toss around words like "DEVIANT!"

and i'll fully admit that there are things that go on in my "community" that i'm not terribly proud of. and i fully admit to an instinct to try to explain it away -- much like any other member of a community.

I agree with you on the maturity issue for sure.

What's interesting to me about the second part of your post is that I actually don't see the openly-gay-bathroom-cruising thing as something that you or any gay man should feel you have to explain away because I guess I don't think it's so bad, or perhaps I'm just used to hearing about it over the years. Even though sex in public bathrooms is about as appealing to me as eating placenta, as long as it's consensual I've never really thought twice about it. And I don't mean to be miss straight-girl-know-it-all-about-gay-sexuality but it's just that I'm older, I grew up around gay men, they didn't see it as dirty but rather thrilling and fun and who was I to judge. They felt empowered by their sexuality rather than ashamed and this was fascinating to me as someone who grew up in a very conservative, rigid, repressed environment. That's also probably why I have so much information about it...when people tell you "shocking" things and you keep a straight face and don't react or judge and instead just go, "really?! that's interesting," you continue to get a lot of juicy information.

But of course I understand why you might feel a need to explain it away in today's homophobic, sexophobic, American culture.

Maybe I shouldn't even really be a part of this discussion, I don't know. I just appreciate that the gay men I've known in my life are probably the main reason why I'm so open-minded about sexuality. In my own behavior, I'm still pretty conservative. But my viewpoint is very broad and I can't think of where else I got that from. So when I say that I know openly gay men who cruise bathrooms it isn't to make anyone ashamed or to bring negative attention to this aspect of gay culture, it's to maybe help people not be so uptight about what other people do sexually. But as you say, so many people can't have that conversation so maybe I should just shut up.

 

[martha]

But sex in public bathrooms isn't just involving the two people is it? Are there other men in the bathroom, of whatever orientation, who really just want to use the bathroom and get on with their day? Would we be having this conversation if men and women were having sex in women's restrooms? Would that be okay?

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe I shouldn't even really be a part of this discussion, I don't know. I just appreciate that the gay men I've known in my life are probably the main reason why I'm so open-minded about sexuality. In my own behavior, I'm still pretty conservative. But my viewpoint is very broad and I can't think of where else I got that from. So when I say that I know openly gay men who cruise bathrooms it isn't to make anyone ashamed or to bring negative attention to this aspect of gay culture, it's to maybe help people not be so uptight about what other people do sexually. But as you say, so many people can't have that conversation so maybe I should just shut up.

first, no need at all for you to shut up. please keep talking. you always add so much.

and i just find it all so interesting -- i can see the freedom that comes with growing up outside of the normal boundaries of sexual interaction. most gay men over the age of 40 grew up where they weren't even acknowledged by mainstream society, so they made their own rules. and that can be quite empowering. and i'm sure it can be fun and thrilling, and you're right, so long as it's consensual and it doesn't affect other people, who cares?

it also seems that i'm, too, a product of my time. while i can sit back and think of such anonymous encounters as possibly being hot, i've always grown up seeing myself as part of mainstream culture, and despite being gay, i still see (most) of the rules still applying to me. and so i'm far more prude about such stuff than many other people. it seems as if prudishness comes from your discomfort with not comforming to certain rules and expectations.

now, this is not to say that prudery is bad, or that said rules and expectations are bad. i think it is to say that unchecked male sexuality probably needs rules and regulations to keep it healthy, and i think it is to say that there's nothing inherently wrong with whatever form of sexual expression you choose, just so long as you are willing to live with the consequences.

 

[BVS]

Would we be having this conversation if men and women were having sex in women's restrooms?

No, then it's turned into song lyrics:

"I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom"

Humpty Dance

 

[diamond]

i mostly agree with you -- but i also think that there are some of us in here who aren't mature enough to have a rational discussion on male sexuality especially when we toss around words like "DEVIANT!"

.

Well why don't you start with one of your cheerleaders on the Left- Chris Matthews, he's the one who labeled Senator Wide Stance's crusiing as deviant (only because the Senator is a Republican). Any logical person could connect the dots.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20496581/

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-f...g-sexual-deviant-do-dem-prez-candidates-agree

Would we be having this conversation if men and women were having sex in women's restrooms?

Yes Martha we we would if it were unwanted solicitation, as this was, so get that through your head. Google Senator Bob Packwood for starters, he's a Reuplican Senator who was ran out of office, because he harrassed women and he was- you guessed it a Republican.

Irvine I'm disappointed with you, you're getting desperate in your tactics as I win this discussion with clear headed logic, and I bench press 125% of my body weight without jerking or arching, so there.

In totality I think the male speices whether straight or gay is much much more promiscuous- and that is a genetic thing which is
provable

So take that again you bunch of intellectual schleps.

dbs

 

[martha]

Yes Martha we we would if it were unwanted solicitation, as this was, so get that through your head.

Believe it or not, my comment was not addresed to you.

 

[joyfulgirl]

But sex in public bathrooms isn't just involving the two people is it? Are there other men in the bathroom, of whatever orientation, who really just want to use the bathroom and get on with their day? Would we be having this conversation if men and women were having sex in women's restrooms? Would that be okay?

My understanding is that it's usually selective public bathrooms that are known to generally be safe for this kind of activity and men try to be discreet. But yes, other men could walk in just to do their business and I wouldn't blame them for being upset. I guess I'm just saying that if two men are able to get away with it discreetly in a stall, who cares. If I walked in on a man and woman having sex in the bathroom, I would be annoyed and leave, and then tell it as a funny story later to my friends. If a man sneaked into the women's room and hit on me, I'd run and call the police because women aren't known for being available for that and I would assume I was about to be raped.

 

[Irvine511]

Well why don't you start with one of your cheerleaders on the Left- Chris Matthews, he's the one who labeled Senator Wide Stance's crusiing as deviant (only because the Senator is a Republican). Any logical person could connect the dots.

Chris Matthews is hardly a social leftist, but i suppose anyone who was against the Iraq War has to be a hardcore liberal, so no matter what Matthews actually thinks and believes, you've put him in a box. so continue to believe it.

and i disagree with Matthew's statement.






[q]Irvine I'm disappointed with you, you're getting desperate in your tactics as I win this discussion with clear headed logic, and I bench press 125% of my body weight without jerking or arching, so there.[/q]

keep it up, sexyman. keep it up. for as long as you can. and without any of those little blue pills. that's cheating.




[q]In totality I think the male speices whether straight or gay is much much more promiscuous- and that is a genetic thing which is
provable[/q]

we agree here as well.

 

[joyfulgirl]

No, then it's turned into song lyrics:

"I once got busy in a Burger King bathroom"

Humpty Dance

 

[joyfulgirl]

first, no need at all for you to shut up. please keep talking. you always add so much.

and i just find it all so interesting -- i can see the freedom that comes with growing up outside of the normal boundaries of sexual interaction. most gay men over the age of 40 grew up where they weren't even acknowledged by mainstream society, so they made their own rules. and that can be quite empowering. and i'm sure it can be fun and thrilling, and you're right, so long as it's consensual and it doesn't affect other people, who cares?

it also seems that i'm, too, a product of my time. while i can sit back and think of such anonymous encounters as possibly being hot, i've always grown up seeing myself as part of mainstream culture, and despite being gay, i still see (most) of the rules still applying to me. and so i'm far more prude about such stuff than many other people. it seems as if prudishness comes from your discomfort with not comforming to certain rules and expectations.

now, this is not to say that prudery is bad, or that said rules and expectations are bad. i think it is to say that unchecked male sexuality probably needs rules and regulations to keep it healthy, and i think it is to say that there's nothing inherently wrong with whatever form of sexual expression you choose, just so long as you are willing to live with the consequences.

This all makes perfect sense to me.

I'm kind of a prude by most straight standards. I enjoy "Sex & the City" but I cannot relate to it at all.

 

[Diemen]

I dunno, seems like that didn't save Clinton....or the shrew.

Ah yes. I forgot that it also helps if you're a Republican.

 

[deep]

I would really like to see the guilty plea thrown out.

(Sometimes when I am listening to my iPod, I tap my foot)

In a CNN interview Sunday, one of Craig's Senate colleagues compared the guilty plea to a motorist paying an undeserved parking ticket. Sen. Arlen Specter, the ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said Craig should stay in the Senate and fight to overturn his conviction.


"He thought that this matter would not be publicly disclosed, and that was very foolish," Specter said. "Now look here, you have 27 years in the Congress, you have his reputation, you have his whole life on the line. I think he's entitled to his day in court. Maybe he will be convicted, but I doubt it."

Specter said Minnesota law allows a defendant to withdraw a guilty plea "if there is manifest injustice, and that is defined that a plea can be withdrawn if it was not intelligently made," Specter said. "And what Sen. Craig did was by no means intelligent.

 

[martha]

"And what Sen. Craig did was by no means intelligent.

This doesn't make me have any more confidence in the Senate.

 

[deep]

Sen. Craig seeks to withdraw guilty plea

Restroom arrest caused panic, he says
Monday, September 10, 2007 3:09 PM

THE WASHINGTON POST

WASHINGTON — Sen. Larry Craig today formally asked to withdraw his guilty plea to misdemeanor disorderly conduct in an airport men's restroom, saying “he was panicked” that the incident would prompt a home-state newspaper to publish allegations he was gay.

The Idaho Republican filed the court papers in Hennepin County (Minn.) District Court asking for a speedy hearing to meet his self-imposed deadline of Sept. 30 to resolve the criminal case. He has said he would resign from the Senate if the charge is not resolved by then.

Craig's legal team, lead by high-profile lawyer Billy Martin, argued in its filing that the plea should be waived because the undercover officer who arrested the senator in the restroom of the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport promised Craig that he would not call the media or publicize the arrest in any way.

“While in this state of intense anxiety, Senator Craig felt compelled to grasp the lifeline offered him by the police officer, namely that if he were to submit to an interview and plead guilty, then none of the officer's allegations would be made public,” Martin and Thomas Kelly, Craig's Minnesota-based lawyer, write in their filing.

The second prong of Martin and Kelly's argument is that the facts of the case do not add up to a crime. Craig is accused of using signals that are known to men having sexual encounters in restrooms -- tapping his feet, bumping one into the foot of the undercover officer in the stall next to him, swiping his hand under the partition dividing the stalls -- but his lawyers say that those were interpretations by the officer.

“Viewed in its worst light, (Craig's conduct) doesn't even rise to the level of annoying, much less disorderly,” the lawyers write.

The motions argue that Craig is not a lawyer and did not properly understand the rights available to him to contest the charges.

If the legal system works properly
the guilty plea will be thrown out.

If the Judge goes with the political winds
he will deny the request.

 

[Irvine511]

If the legal system works properly
the guilty plea will be thrown out.

If the Judge goes with the political winds
he will deny the request.

i hope it gets thrown out and he gets all indignent and stays.

the late-night comics need more material.

 

[deep]

If DeLay, Rove and Cheney can call themselves Christian

Then this guy has every right to call himself straight.

Who is more credible?

 

[deep]

“Craig’s case may have been handled more harshly than the others. He alone among the 40 men arrested was charged with both disorderly conduct and interference with privacy,” even though the other men had exposed their genitals or crouched on the floor and looked under the stall.

 

[dazzlingamy]

ahhhh hello subective law. how you ruin thee.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

(AP)MINNEAPOLIS, Minn. --When tourists ask for the bathroom in the Minneapolis airport lately, it's usually not because they have to go.

It's because they want to see the stall made famous by U.S. Sen. Larry Craig's arrest in a sex sting.

"It's become a tourist attraction," said Karen Evans, information specialist at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. "People are taking pictures."

Craig was arrested June 11 by a Minneapolis airport police officer. The Idaho Republican pleaded guilty to misdemeanor disorderly conduct.

Craig has since said his guilty plea was a mistake. His request to withdraw the guilty plea will be heard Sept. 26, just four days before he has said he will step down from his Senate seat.

Just 15 minutes into her shift on Friday, Evans said she had been asked directions to the new tourist attraction four times. Other airport workers field the same question.

"It's by the Lottery shop, right next to the shoeshine shop," said newsstand worker Abdalla Said, adding he gets the question daily.

The Royal Zino Shoeshine shop owner's grandson, Royal Zino, said it has been hectic.

"People have been going inside, taking pictures of the stall, taking pictures outside the bathroom door -- man, it's been crazy," he said.

On their way to Guatemala, Jon and Sally Westby of Minneapolis made a visit.

"We had to just stop and check out the bathroom," Sally said. "In fact, it's Jon's second time -- he was here last week already

 

[deep]

Minnesota GOP Rep. Ramstad to Retire, Leaving Seat Up for Grabs

By Marie Horrigan | 4:45 PM; Sep. 17, 2007

The retirement announcement that nine-term Minnesota Republican Rep. Jim Ramstad delivered Monday afternoon was unwelcome news for national GOP strategists — who already are dealing with an uphill battle to overcome their House minority status, and will face a serious fight to hold Ramstad’s 3rd District seat in suburbs to the north, west and south of Minneapolis.

The 61-year-old Ramstad announced his plans not to seek re-election in 2008 at a mid-afternoon news conference in his hometown of Minnetonka. “Now it’s my time to do something else,” said the long-popular centrist Republican. He added, “After 17 years of commuting every week to Washington, D.C., 17 years of being gone all week, it’s time to be home with the people that I love and I miss. ... In a nutshell, it’s time to start living life.”

Democratic activists have long contended that it was only Ramstad’s personal popularity and voting record as one of the most moderate House Republicans that enabled him to regularly win with landslide margins, and they said they were prepared to highly target the 3rd District seat at whatever point Ramstad decided to step aside.

Unlike many of his GOP colleagues, Ramstad suffered no dropoff in the terrible Republican year of 2006, matching the 65 percent of the vote that he enjoyed in 2004.

Minnesota GOP Rep. Ramstad

Leaving Seat Up for Grabs???


If this guy leaves his seat up for grabs
then he better retire.

 

[deep]

My guess is that there will be a few more GOP "nice men" that choose not to seek re-election in 2008.

 

[Irvine511]

Minnesota GOP Rep. Ramstad

Leaving Seat Up for Grabs???


If this guy leaves his seat up for grabs
then he better retire.

i wonder who'll come out for the race?

the Dems better not blow this one.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

CNN) -- Conservative Sen. Larry Craig got support from an unexpected source on Monday. The American Civil Liberties Union filed a brief in court saying the lawmaker's bathroom bust was likely unconstitutional.

The ACLU urged a Minnesota District Court to let Craig withdraw his guilty plea.

"Sen. Craig has not always been a great friend of civil liberties, but you shouldn't have to endorse the civil liberties of others to keep your own," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero, alluding to Craig's history of voting against gay rights.

Craig, R-Idaho, was arrested in June at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport in Minnesota after a police officer in a bathroom stall next to him alleged the senator attempted to solicit sex. Craig pleaded guilty August 8 to one charge of disorderly conduct. When the case came to light earlier this month, Craig announced his intention to resign September 30.

But days later, it was announced Craig would fight to overturn his conviction and may not resign. He filed papers September 10 to withdraw his guilty plea.

The ACLU friend-of-the-court brief was submitted to the Minnesota 4th District Court.

"The real motive behind secret sting operations like the one that resulted in Sen. Craig's arrest is not to stop people from inappropriate activity. It is to make as many arrests as possible -- arrests that sometimes unconstitutionally trap innocent people," Romero said in a written statement.

Police must be able to demonstrate beyond a doubt that the sex was going to happen in public, he said. Regardless of whether it occurs in a bathroom or a bar, solicitation for private sex is protected speech under the First Amendment, the ACLU argues.

If the police really wanted to stop people from having sex in public bathrooms, they "should put up a sign banning sex in the restroom and send in a uniformed officer to patrol periodically," Romero said.

Patrick Hogan of the Metropolitan Airports Commission said Monday that authorities are prepared to defend the way Craig's arrest was carried out, as well as at least 41 similar arrests made this year in the same public restroom.

"Engaging in public sex in a bathroom is a crime and most people understand that without putting up a sign," Hogan said. "We saw a lot of communication about this particular bathroom on Web sites, and if we make it known that we're aware of it we can't be expected to enforce the law as effectively."

Hogan added, "We believe the charges fit the crime and Sen. Craig agreed to the charges as part of plea negotiations."

"Government should make public restrooms safe for all, but it should do so in a manner that is really designed to stop inappropriate behavior, rather than destroying the lives of people who might have no intention of doing anything illegal," Romero said.

 

[BVS]

Uh oh, another weakening of the leftist, commie ACLU argument...

 

[martha]

It must kill Craig that the ACLU is defending his conduct.

 

[deep]

He's back! Larry Craig returns to the Senate

Sen. Larry Craig on Capitol Hill on September 18, 2007. AP Photo/Lauren Victoria Burke.

by Jill Zuckman

A little more than two weeks after announcing he would resign from Congress following a guilty plea arising from a bathroom sex scandal, Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) walked back into the Senate chamber Tuesday and cast two votes.

Craig, who is trying to undo his plea and fight the charges against him, spoke to a few colleagues on the floor, but mostly stood in the back of the chamber on the Republican side of the aisle. Neither Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) nor Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), spoke to him. Both have been highly critical of Craig, with McConnell calling his actions "unforgivable."

At 12:40 p.m., Craig strode out of the chamber, walking briskly down the hall to the Mansfield room for lunch with his Republican colleagues.

Asked if his presence meant he would not resign, Craig said, "No, not at all."

He said he was back in Washington to work in his office and spend time with staff. Craig originally announced he would resign as of Sept. 30th, but then seemed to suggest that he might not resign at all.

Asked if he was optimistic about his chances to get his guilty plea overturned, Craig said, "I don’t have an opinion on it," and then shut the door of the Mansfield room behind him.

Craig, spoke to a few colleagues on the floor, but mostly stood in the back of the chamber on the Republican side of the aisle. Neither Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) nor Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), spoke to him.




Is McCain becoming a coward in his old age?

 

[Irvine511]

Is McCain becoming a coward in his old age?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Moments ago, the Senate voted 60-39 to end debate on the Matthew Shepard Act, which expands federal hate crimes laws to include violence based on a victim's sexual orientation, gender, disability, and other factors. The AP reports:

The Senate attached hate crimes legislation to a must-pass Pentagon spending bill Thursday, but opponents predicted it ultimately would fail.

"The president is not going to agree to this social legislation on the defense authorization bill," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C. "This bill will get vetoed." [...]

The Democratic-controlled House passed the same hate crimes legislation as a stand-alone bill earlier this year despite Bush's veto threat. That makes a repeat of 2004, when the Senate passed a similar amendment to the same bill only to see it stripped out during negotiations with the Republican-led House, less likely this time around. President Bush, who says the bill is not needed, could then be faced with vetoing the vast defense authorization bill containing the same provision.

The White House had no immediate comment Thursday.

Notably, Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) voted against the legislation.

 

[phillyfan26]

Notably, Sen. Larry Craig (R-ID) voted against the legislation.

After all, he isn't a homosexual.