One German's Opinion on the Ill Fated and Catastropihic Effects of Appeasement - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-01-2005, 12:19 AM   #31
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,288
Local Time: 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

Judaism is very closely associated to a specific ethnic group, this is not the case with Islam or Christianity. Therein lies the difference.
This is kind of OT, but you reminded me of it.

I had a friend when I was in undergrad. His name was Muhammad, and he was a brilliant guy on a business school scholarship. His father was an Ethiopian Jew, who was transported to Israel in the 70s along with the rest of the Ethiopian Jews. At the time, he thought he was going to paradise, because Israel was certainly more advanced, had better infrastructure, excellent universities and he was an educated man who thought that he could finally get out of the hellhole in Ethiopia where he had lived and where his community had been ostracized for centuries. However, upon living a couple of years in Israel, he said never had he met such racist, ignorant, cruel people as the Israeli Jews, and as soon as he scraped the money, he went to Kenya where he met a Muslim woman, married her, converted and had 4 kids. The eldest was a daughter, went to med school, really bright. Then Muhammad. The youngest two sons never forgave their father's scars and turned into fundamentalist Muslims very early on, hate Israel with every fiber of their being. I always thought, what a sad, ironic story.
__________________

__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 12-01-2005, 12:54 AM   #32
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,673
Local Time: 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Broadly speaking calling Islam a race or even a specific ethnic group is flawed.
I agree, but you seem to have a problem in your posts(I'm speaking in general) the differences between anti-islam, anti-terrorism, and race. You often combine them all. That's where I have the problem.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-01-2005, 01:26 AM   #33
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 01:45 AM
I disagree with combining them with race, I do not, have not nor ever have taken a position in regards to these matters on the basis of race. I would like to see the point where I meld them together. Call me anti-Islam by all means because I am anti-Religious; but not so that I would see peoples freedom to believe whatever mythology they want to regardless of how stupid - provided it does not infringe on any other individuals rights, but any charge of racism or even anti-Muslim sentiment on that basis is in my own personal opinion that belief in a supernatural being is flawed.

I may combine terrorism and Islam together because as an ideology Islamist terrorists are religiously minded and their motivation is justified by their scripture ~ that is in many ways a fault inherent in religion in general and something that deserves serious attention. It's one thing to say that Islamist terrorists are not following Islam or that they are corrupting the teachings of the prophet but it is almost a willfull naiviete that would completely dissociate them from any part of the religion and completely ignore the religious components of their justifications (somehow the concept of righteous religious hatred is lost on most people these days, well unless were talking about the gays).

In regards to my posts in general I have posted numerous examples of the "unexpected terrorist", the usual mix of women, westerners and nice normal young men who all seem to have affiliations with the same groups, be it Muslim Brotherhood or Hizb ut-Tahir, I think it comes across in an abundantly clear way that I do not see Islam as a monolithic entity - but I do say that there are groups that would desire it to be, to have their own world peace through a global house of islam. And they are the people that go about blowing up innocent people, and enforcing their own retrograde social rules upon human beings when they acheive power (such as in Afghanistan under the Taliban or Fallujah). And just reading through the various declarations made by these groups and the stated goals (such as the recently found "project" document in Switzerland during a raid on Yousef Nada's Villa outlining how the Muslim Brotherhood can bring about their own style of Islamic dominance over the world through social, economic and military means).

I feel that freedom of speech is the first liberty that is being eroded by Islamist groups and those well intentioned people who want to see harmony. An allegation of racism is a very effective means of silencing debate, the perception that criticism of a religion is racist enables such speech to be legislated against. That protection from criticism will be used by those that would want to do damage and in the end everybody looses out. I don't criticise all Muslims over terrorism, I will criticise specific Islamic leaders who make public statements in a duplicitous manner, or groups with aims and objectives that would undermine a pluralist and secural society that I and most other human beings living here enjoy, and those who actively grant them support. That type of speech might as well be the same as "all Muslims are goatfuckers who should go back to the desert where they belong" (to pull an example from the late Theo van Gough - an offensive, bigoted screed coming from a bore) if it can all be labelled as racist. People should judge the speech by its merits or lack thereof, and reflexive cries of racism is the trump card in stopping this.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 02:53 AM   #34
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 01:45 AM
A choice quote on the matter that illustrates the point very well.
Quote:
Iqbal Sacranie Muslim Council of Britain

Is freedom of expression without bounds? Muslims are not alone in saying ‘No' and in calling for safeguards against vilification of dearly cherished beliefs..
link

Freedom of speech should be non-negotiable, I have a serious problem these attitudes, now the MCB is hardly an extremist organisation but this sort of position certainly shows how you can justify diminishing liberties on seemingly harmless grounds.

Beliefs may be dearly cherished but that doesn't mean that they should be immune from criticism, the anti-religious vilification laws are often supported by other major religious establishments, they all have a vested interest in being free from criticism and piece by piece they can get their way.

Blurring the lines between race and religion in the case of Islam is a means to such an end. For the preservation of free and secular society it is worth pointing out to these goons that Islam is not a race and it deserves exactly as much protection as any other religion - that being whatever counterpoint that can be put up against critics.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 02:54 AM   #35
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
For Honor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 5,278
Local Time: 10:45 AM
very interesting thread
__________________
For Honor is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:30 AM   #36
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And I call bullshit on it
I like when people start using expressions that I have introduced on FYM

A_W youre my man.

anti-Islam, see... using that kind of wording, my friend, you have to explain your views - not me
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 04:33 AM   #37
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


d
b
9
diamond - the only pics I like are the fairy and the lion. Did your charming daughters tell you to include them in your post, so daddy doesn´t only post old, boring men?
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 05:03 AM   #38
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

anti-Islam, see... using that kind of wording, my friend, you have to explain your views - not me
Don't worry I am just as anti-Islam as I am anti-Christian. A plea of common sense against the believers in the concept of the Jewish/Christian/Islamic Abrahamic God who seem intent on remaking society to fit their own religious goals.

Another choice quote from those posts
Quote:
I can be equally contemptuous towards all religions although the ones that are outwardly intollerent towards the principles I believe in generally get my ire.
Quote:
Call me anti-Islam by all means because I am anti-Religious; but not so that I would see peoples freedom to believe whatever mythology they want to regardless of how stupid - provided it does not infringe on any other individuals rights, but any charge of racism or even anti-Muslim sentiment on that basis is in my own personal opinion that belief in a supernatural being is flawed.
Freedom of religion built upon the no harm principle, when individuals violate that principle by attacking others or legislating for a supernatural theistic worldview (e.g. creationism) they have to be fought over it. Individual quality is not defined by religion, one can be anti-Religious and hold a strong atheist opinion and worldview towards religion and yet still be friends and judge people by individual merit, that was the point that I am honing in on, one that is tarred with the same brush as racist by some quarters.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 05:21 AM   #39
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wow, what an exciting and constructive debate tactic!
You've really given us LOTS to think about here.

Maybe we should all just forget about this time consuming thoughts-into-words business and just settle for posting endless exchanges of pictures cleverly juxtaposing politicians with barn animals, cockroaches, primates, Thomas Kinkade paintings etc.

Sure would be a lot easier than taking time to construct original arguments that actually engage what other posters have to say.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 05:32 AM   #40
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 05:45 PM
yay yolland, diamond is diamond. he thinks its cool he´s a big republican teddybear selling SUVs. there´s absolutely nothing we can do to change his mind. I kicked him out of a jeep once - zilch effect (the good old times)

Still, I am sure the fairy idea was not his....!

iamondbrothawink:
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:13 AM   #41
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Irvine511: an update on the facts:

just some examples, quoting
William Blum

"for you to present it as obvious is *precisely* what drives me nuts about politican discussions with some Europeans."

-looking at the above, I can´t really help you if that drives you nuts.-


that's a lovely cutting-and-pasting job, hiphop!

quoting someone with an agenda does nothing to settle the discussion, or even to have a discussion. you've, again, demonstrated how intellectually lazy you are when it comes to this subject. taking a single man's opinion and presenting it as not just fact but as all-encompassing, incontravertable truth isn't even university-level thought.

but it's clear your mind is made up, and it's central to your worldview, so it's rather pointless to engage.

look, i can cut and paste too:

[q]The terrorists -- whatever else they might be -- are also rational human beings; which is to say that in their own minds they have a rational justification for their actions. Most terrorists are people deeply concerned by what they see as social, political or religious injustice and hypocrisy, and the immediate grounds for their terrorism is often retaliation for an action of the United States.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Bl...sHateAmer.html

[/q]
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:18 AM   #42
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:45 PM
One thing I would say - you often hear the argument from US Republican voters that 'We saved Europe's ass in WWII'. While there is some legitimacy to the argment it tends to take away from the numerous other nations large and small that contributed to the Allied war effort. The sacrifice in terms of lives lost from New Zealand and Australia was proportionately larger than from the USA for example.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:22 AM   #43
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I agree, but you seem to have a problem in your posts(I'm speaking in general) the differences between anti-islam, anti-terrorism, and race. You often combine them all. That's where I have the problem.
Though I disagree with A_W on many issues I have never seen any indication of him holding anything close to racist views.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:29 AM   #44
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
One thing I would say - you often hear the argument from US Republican voters that 'We saved Europe's ass in WWII'. While there is some legitimacy to the argment it tends to take away from the numerous other nations large and small that contributed to the Allied war effort. The sacrifice in terms of lives lost from New Zealand and Australia was proportionately larger than from the USA for example.

i would agree that the idea that "the US won WW2" to be just as simplistic as "everything the US has ever done is bad."

though you will find very, very few examples in history of one country (the US) slowly working it's way, house-to-house, in another country (France) to rid that country of occupiers (Germany).

i do think it is fair to say that, if not for the US, the Allies might well have lost WW2, but this is not the whole story.

what HipHop and Republicans are doing is simplifying history to suit their own worldviews.

one thing i do know is that every single foreign policy decision made by the US can't be explained with a single sentence. there's a host of factors, a host of motivations, and the end result is neither all good or all bad.

but some people need to see it that way.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-01-2005, 09:37 AM   #45
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i do think it is fair to say that, if not for the US, the Allies might well have lost WW2, but this is not the whole story.
I also think it is fair to say that were it not for Hitler's decision to invade Russia the Allies might have lost WW2.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com