one german's opinion - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-07-2005, 10:23 AM   #1
The Fly
 
earthshell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 282
Local Time: 03:50 AM
one german's opinion

i received this in an email message.

spam has never been so tasteless.

* * * * * * * * * * * *


Matthias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily newspaper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.

EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE
(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement... how is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after = a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes = what is at stake - literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

scary.
__________________

__________________
earthshell is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 10:46 AM   #2
Refugee
 
all_i_want's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,180
Local Time: 06:50 AM
do you remember any terrorist attacks against germany or france lately? i dont.

the logic is pretty simple, if we walk away they walk away.

also about the muslim holiday, germany has a predominantly muslim turkish population of 2.5 million, and im sure there are at least 500k to 1 million muslims from different nations, making up 4 percent of the total population. now thats not an unsignificant group. and if the country has religious holidays for christians, its only fair that they have them for muslims, jews, hindus or whoever.

whats really scary is that this guy heads the largest daily newspaper in germany.
__________________

__________________
all_i_want is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 10:55 AM   #3
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,693
Local Time: 09:50 PM
He thinks Bush and Reagan are 2 of the greatest American presidents and he loves to bash Europe. Well he fits the criteria, the neo-cons would embrace this man in a heartbeat. So if he ever had to flee the country, he'd have a safe home here with the GOP.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 03-07-2005, 11:11 AM   #4
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
do you remember any terrorist attacks against germany or france lately? i dont.

the logic is pretty simple, if we walk away they walk away.

while i've never supported the invasion of Iraq, and can't find too much i like about this article, i do think the above logic is extremely simplistic and dangerous.

there is a real, deadly threat of Islamist extremism out there that is not about to go away no matter what the rest does. and these people pose a threat not just to, say, New York, but also to people in, say, Istanbul.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 03-07-2005, 11:22 AM   #5
Refugee
 
all_i_want's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,180
Local Time: 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



while i've never supported the invasion of Iraq, and can't find too much i like about this article, i do think the above logic is extremely simplistic and dangerous.

there is a real, deadly threat of Islamist extremism out there that is not about to go away no matter what the rest does. and these people pose a threat not just to, say, New York, but also to people in, say, Istanbul.
yeah, i do realize that. what happened on 15 and 20th of november, 2003 proves it. 2 synagogues and HSBC buildings were bombed in istanbul. but the solution is not to attack other nations head on with this. there should be a two pronged approach: you should make life better for the people who are potential recruits for such organizations, and tackle these groups themselves. now, how to accomplish those objectives is where the disagreement is.

i find it ironic that the same europeans once criticised turkey for its tough stance against islamic extremism.

it is also ironic that US used to support people with these kinds of mindsets in the middle east, against the soviets.

edit: also the point of my original post was, if you escalate the situation by attacking countries who did not take part in terrorist activities leading to 9-11, youre not saying youre out to get the terrorists. europe supported the war against afghanistan, and so did my country. we had troops there under NATO. the whole world was committed to the war against terror.
__________________
all_i_want is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 12:10 PM   #6
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want

edit: also the point of my original post was, if you escalate the situation by attacking countries who did not take part in terrorist activities leading to 9-11, youre not saying youre out to get the terrorists. europe supported the war against afghanistan, and so did my country. we had troops there under NATO. the whole world was committed to the war against terror.

on this we agree. Iraq was, to me, totally beside the point. i'm obviously not sorry to see Saddam Hussein go, there was a much better way to do this, and it didn't have to happen on an election timetable.

my point, and i've made this point blank to many of my European friends, is that you cannot underestimate the catastrophe that suicidal Islamist extremism can cause. this is not the IRA, this is not the ETA, this is not even the Shining Path. this is an apocalyptic mindset, and it must be destroyed.

the mindset, not the people. and i agree with a multi-pronged attack, and the establishment of something resembling a middle class in these countries where people have something to lose and a stake in the stability of their societies. by and large, people with a sense of ownership over something don't get sucked into extremism.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 03-07-2005, 01:01 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 03:50 AM
I agree with what you guys are saying, I support the war against terror also, I supported the effort in Afghanistan for this reason. I didn't support the war in Iraq because it was a different thing entirely, and they completely botched the occupation as well. I don't like this German guy either, I never liked Reagan and I don't like Bush. I'm sure the Republicans would love to have him.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 01:44 PM   #8
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 01:50 PM
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".

The struggle against Fascist Islam is one that must be fought by all free nations, it cannot end until the Muslim world is rid of toxic ideologies of suicide and mass murder, violent anti-semitism and apocalyptic terror.
Quote:
Sir Winston Churchill
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Europe may have bought time by feeding the Islamist crocodile but that will only delay the inevitable point where that monster lashes out at them.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 01:59 PM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 01:50 PM
And the key to the defeat of Islamic Fascism is to support the 50% of the population that suffers the most under it. Check out this from Kuwait
Quote:


KUWAIT (Reuters) - Around 500 Kuwaiti activists, mostly women, have demonstrated outside parliament to demand female suffrage amidst tensions in the Gulf Arab state over a government drive to grant women political rights.

“Women’s rights now,” chanted the crowd, which included women dressed in abayas, or traditional long black cloaks. Some of the demonstrators at Monday’s protest wore veils over their faces.

“Our democracy will only be complete with women,” said a placard written in Arabic. “We are not less, you are not more. We need a balance, open the door,” said one written in English.
link

This is indeed a positive development ~ victory will have many fathers but defeat is an orphan ~ I think that the cracks in opression are beginning to show and if the free world can present a united front in solidarity with those who could be our allies then these ripples may grow into waves. This protest is not a massive world changing event, but it is a step in the right direction ~ when we see such things in Saudi Arabia and Iran (Kuwait is relatively more liberal than those regimes) then I suspect the big unravelling will begin.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:19 PM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".
I sincerely hope you are not comparing Yasser Arafat to Bin Laden.....
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:21 PM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
A solid opinion, appeasment of Islamic terrorism will not work ~ Europe cannot talk it's way out of the problem, Europe cannot bring Bin Laden into the fold like they did with Yasser Arafat. This is one man who really does get "it".

The struggle against Fascist Islam is one that must be fought by all free nations, it cannot end until the Muslim world is rid of toxic ideologies of suicide and mass murder, violent anti-semitism and apocalyptic terror.

Europe may have bought time by feeding the Islamist crocodile but that will only delay the inevitable point where that monster lashes out at them.

Fascist Islam?

Islamic Terror?

Islamic crocodile?

Monster?

These are EXACTLY the same kind of dehumanising phrases once used to demonise the Jews. I think you should be more careful about the words you use, especially when you are the first to criticize others.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:25 PM   #12
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 10:50 PM
This dude it right on.
__________________
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:37 PM   #13
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 10:50 PM
Quote:

I sincerely hope you are not comparing Yasser Arafat to Bin Laden.....
Right, at least Bin Laden spends his own money on terrorism... whereas Yasser just horded it all for himself.
__________________
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:38 PM   #14
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 04:50 AM
Would you consider Sharon a terrorist?
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 03-07-2005, 06:40 PM   #15
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 10:50 PM
Quote:
Would you consider Sharon a terrorist?
Right, and so is Bush, and Blair, and every other elected official from democratic states that are actively engaging by military means...

Yes, of course, they are all terrorists.
__________________

__________________
MadelynIris is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com