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Old 09-24-2006, 10:02 PM   #16
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Originally posted by INDY500
Dhimmitude can be defined as the state of inferiority of non-Muslims under Islam.


All of which leaves me feeling pretty pessimistic about CoExist.
That is coexist with other people of the book, Christians and Jews can live and apy their protection money but for genuine unbelievers a literalist cannot even grant them that. The idea of athesits being allowed to live and not believe is by no means guaranteed in theocracy.

The important thing to highlight is that these problems are not exclusive to Islam but the west has cast away Christian theocracy and embraced principles of secularism and freedom of religion - in my opinion the best way to have multiple groups tolerate eachother.
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:05 PM   #17
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And let's not forget dear old Constantinople falling to the Turks. It seems like the Byzantine monarchy had become a bad joke, what with dynastic disputes in which they showed they knew how to spend money...............the Greeks of Asia Minor actually started to prefer Turkish rule because they didn't like the Greek government, and the Frankish mercenaries brought in by the Byzantines to help them fight the Turks turned out to be a pain in the ass to the Byzantines because they wanted to go to Jerusalem, didn't appreciate Constantinople and ended up sacking the place. So that's what happened to the empire that deserved to die.
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:06 PM   #18
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Oh because Christians don't do this...Please. We have people in here telling others they aren't saved or their religion is false all the time. And let's not forget how badly they want to create second class citizens out of homosexuals.

Sounds like a state of inferiority to me.



Here's a mirror, some of you could really use it...
Your right that there are plenty of Christians with the same general agenda so lets drop the double standard and demand an end to both.

Today you won't get a church sanctioned death sentence for criticising Christianity - can we say the same about Islam?
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Old 09-24-2006, 10:41 PM   #19
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Oh because Christians don't do this...Please. We have people in here telling others they aren't saved or their religion is false all the time. And let's not forget how badly they want to create second class citizens out of homosexuals.

Sounds like a state of inferiority to me.



Here's a mirror, some of you could really use it...
My faith teaches not to compare oneself to other men, but only to Christ. To prevent just that, a feeling of superiority and prideful thoughts. But the dogma of Islam is the topic.

And for the record, I have no problem with non-Muslims converting to Islam. As long as it's of their own freewill. It's allowed in the West along with the immigration of Muslims. But the immigration of non-Muslims to Islamic countries is almost nonexistent and conversion to, preaching of, or proselytizing Christianity there can mean death.

That is a difference that cannot be ignored.
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:01 PM   #20
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
That is coexist with other people of the book, Christians and Jews can live and apy their protection money but for genuine unbelievers a literalist cannot even grant them that. The idea of athesits being allowed to live and not believe is by no means guaranteed in theocracy.

The important thing to highlight is that these problems are not exclusive to Islam but the west has cast away Christian theocracy and embraced principles of secularism and freedom of religion - in my opinion the best way to have multiple groups tolerate eachother.
I would never argue that a Christian theocracy would be any less intolerant of unbelievers (heretics). History shows otherwise, but that's the only place one can find Christian theocracies nowadays, in the history books. How to get Islamic theocracies there as well is the question.
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:47 AM   #21
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"Fundamentalists...create God in their own image"

Bono
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Old 09-25-2006, 08:58 AM   #22
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The important thing to highlight is that these problems are not exclusive to Islam but the west has cast away Christian theocracy and embraced principles of secularism and freedom of religion - in my opinion the best way to have multiple groups tolerate eachother.
True.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:01 AM   #23
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But the immigration of non-Muslims to Islamic countries is almost nonexistent and conversion to, preaching of, or proselytizing Christianity there can mean death.

That is a difference that cannot be ignored.
And here's the question. Is it because Islam is inherently violent or is it because these countries theocracies with no seperation of church and state? Sadly, the history of Christianity suggests that the issue is not the "teachings of the faith" but what happens when religion puts on the cloak of worldly power.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:59 AM   #24
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And here's the question. Is it because Islam is inherently violent or is it because these countries theocracies with no seperation of church and state? Sadly, the history of Christianity suggests that the issue is not the "teachings of the faith" but what happens when religion puts on the cloak of worldly power.

absolutely.

the reason why Christianity, in comparison to Islam, is so "successful" has nothing to do with the teachings of either religion and everything to do with the systems of government and the critical separation of church/mosque and state. keeping the government out of religion, and vice versa, is the best way to keep religion alive, healthy, robust, and compassionate.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:09 AM   #25
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absolutely.

the reason why Christianity, in comparison to Islam, is so "successful" has nothing to do with the teachings of either religion and everything to do with the systems of government and the critical separation of church/mosque and state. keeping the government out of religion, and vice versa, is the best way to keep religion alive, healthy, robust, and compassionate.
Morning, Irvine! (For me, it's good night. It's past midnight and I HAVE to get to bed).

Yep. And might I add that Jesus was the first one to promote the concept of seperation of church and state in regards to His own religion. "My Kingdom is not of this world," He said. Christians throughout the ages have pretty much ignored that.
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