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Old 08-31-2007, 09:32 PM   #1
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On Christianity

As a Christian, I really would like a perspective from those of other faiths or no religious faith on how the body of Christ, whether as individuals or communaly, has failed. Obviously, being a Christian doesn't make any of us perfect (although it would seem that way from the self-righteousness of many Believers) I often feel we use this excuse as a reason to subtly, or not subtly, pass judgement on others. I, of course, know there's a great deal of hypocrisy, closemindedness, and judgement in the church that makes the credibility of Christians irreparably damaged in many peoples' eyes. I'd like to see some of you who are non-Believers to expand on those common problems, maybe with personal anecdotes, or to simply broaden your issues with Christians/ity to other areas as well. I don't really want this to veer off into the topic of (why does God?... if God exists, then how come?... etc.) I feel like that's gone over enough here and many other places as well. I'd really like this thread to be about the problems with Christianity and the crap hole of a job we've done in really being Jesus in this world. I'm sick of other Christians sweeping this under the rug with statements like, "They just know that we have the truth and they don't, so they hate us." There's an issue deeper than that. Non-Believers in Jesus' day loved being around him. He spent most of his time with the people the religious considered the scum of the earth. He wasn't in his little holy huddle at church trying to hide from the big, bad world. Yet, we as Christians do the exact opposite. It pisses me off to no end. I think I might be going OT here so I'll end. For other Christians, that might want to answer the non-Believers' questions here, or respond to posts: Please don't do so in an offensive or defensive manner. Simply try and be unbiased and understand where they're coming from.
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:41 PM   #2
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I come to Christianity it a unique way. I fully believe in the Divinity of Christ, yet I'm not a Christian. I think Christianity has Beauty and Truth.

My problem comes with His human followers who have allowed their faith, their religion of Love and Forgiveness and inclusion to be used as a tool for hatred, bigotry, and exclusion. Many Christians don't do this; they live their faith. But so many times, people will use their Bible, and Jesus's own Words, to justify their fear and prejudice. It saddens me.
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
I come to Christianity it a unique way. I fully believe in the Divinity of Christ, yet I'm not a Christian. I think Christianity has Beauty and Truth.

My problem comes with His human followers who have allowed their faith, their religion of Love and Forgiveness and inclusion to be used as a tool for hatred, bigotry, and exclusion. Many Christians don't do this; they live their faith. But so many times, people will use their Bible, and Jesus's own Words, to justify their fear and prejudice. It saddens me.
We appear to have similar conclusions. I don't always get along so well with my fundie family. According to The Bible itself, what is a Christian but one who believes Jesus was and is who He said was and is?
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:11 AM   #4
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As a believer, I totally understand where you're coming from. I feel like the "conservative religious right" group are very similar to the religious group in Jesus' time on earth. God tells us that we should be humble and not let our pride and judgement of others get in the way of loving others, and it saddens me that these "religious leaders" believe the opposite. Fortunately, though, not all Christians think this way.
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:12 AM   #5
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True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.
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Old 09-01-2007, 09:50 AM   #6
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Although there are plenty of things some Christians do that irk me, right now I'll just mention three which never fail to both irritate me and lower my respect significantly for those who utter them. It is by no means intended to be a condemnation of all Christians (just some of them ).

1) the belief that those who are agnostic or atheistic (or just aren't Christian) can't be as moral as Christians. Bull. To be a good Christian, you have to be a good person first. (same for all other religions too) Plenty of exceptionally decent, moral people hold no religious beliefs at all and to assume otherwise is incredibly insulting. If you hold this view, does that mean that you would be a raping, pillaging, murdering marauder if you suddenly lost your faith? If so, please stay far, far away from me even now, because that's just creepy.

2) "Christians are under attack in the US/Christians are persecuted in the US/It's really hard to be a Christian in the US." Do you have a single brain cell in your head? Seriously. Do you have any clue just how much you are catered to in this country? Respecting the rights and beliefs of other people is not persecuting you. If you honestly believe you, as a Christian, are persecuted or under attack in this country then everything you say is suspect because you clearly are not rational.

3) prosyletising -- don't. Just don't. I hate the hard sell. If I'm interested I am quite capable of asking or otherwise checking out a belief system on my own. But if you push me I won't buy from you, even if I later become interested.

I don't mind many Christians (I even like some ) and I realise some of my comments above seem harsh, but these things really rankle.
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Old 09-01-2007, 10:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


1) the belief that those who are agnostic or atheistic (or just aren't Christian) can't be as moral as Christians. Bull. To be a good Christian, you have to be a good person first. (same for all other religions too) Plenty of exceptionally decent, moral people hold no religious beliefs at all and to assume otherwise is incredibly insulting. If you hold this view, does that mean that you would be a raping, pillaging, murdering marauder if you suddenly lost your faith? If so, please stay far, far away from me even now, because that's just creepy.
[/B]
I agree, there are some Christians that I can't stand to be around. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean that you are an automatic "friend" to me. If you are an all around good person who is fun to be around, then that's fine to me.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


2) "Christians are under attack in the US/Christians are persecuted in the US/It's really hard to be a Christian in the US." Do you have a single brain cell in your head? Seriously. Do you have any clue just how much you are catered to in this country? Respecting the rights and beliefs of other people is not persecuting you. If you honestly believe you, as a Christian, are persecuted or under attack in this country then everything you say is suspect because you clearly are not rational.


This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:48 AM   #9
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What the hell does somebody being persecuted in Saudi have to do with you living in the US?

Your feelings of persecution are completely and entirely misplaced. And I bet a lot of them have to do with things which are political in nature and not religious (the state of marriage, the state of medical decisions on things like abortion, end-of-life and stem cells, secularism in schools). Nobody is preventing you from worshipping. Now you feel like infusing your religion into the public sphere is your right and when it is interfered with, you are persecuted. Absolute nonsense.

When have you felt persecuted openly declaring you are going to church, or joining sunday school, or choosing a Christian college or Christian private school, or tithing, or having a religious wedding ceremony, etc?
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:50 AM   #10
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^ No one in the States would shoot you for saying you're Christian, though. Nor would the average American prosecute you for your religious beliefs. Which, I believe, was indra's point. We hear many christians complaining that they are 'forced' to give up their rights as human beings on the streets of America. Not likely - you are allowed to freely practice your religious faith in this country at all times, except where you threaten the life and freedom of another. Like every other religious faith in this country.

You make me wonder what it is you wish to do with your faith.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
True believers are starting to wake up and see just how bad we've been exploited by right wing politicians (Sadducees).

We have a lot to "take back" from that group, to include helping the poor, taking care of our planet and all kinds of forms of social injustice.

Unfortunately, evangelicalism has been 'perceived' to be one with this movement, and I say it's time we take it back.


three sets of two words:

fair enough.

good luck.

rock on.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:58 AM   #12
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and, again we see that the prevention of forcing other people to follow one set of beliefs is viewed as tantamount to persecution by some.

i'm going to go kiss Memphis in public so's I can discriminate me some Christians!

*AND* i'm going to say "happy holidays" all December long!

take that, Christians!
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:32 PM   #13
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Now this is my kinda thread.

This Catholic believes that God hates war. There's an awful lot in the Bible about the blood of innocents crying to Him. I feel similarly about the death penalty for similar reason.

Poverty is an offense to God's holiness. "Those who oppress the poor mock their Maker" Chapter Something:Verse Something, Psalms.

Also, Genesis has a lot to say about the Who and Why of creation. Very little to say, that I can see, about the hows. So the "evolution is evil" thing just baffles me.

Finally, if God didn't want gay babies, there wouldn't be any.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
This piece makes no sense. If you're not a Christian, you do not truly know what it is like to live as one in the United States, so the above has no backup or support.

In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.
Annnnd everyone else's point is made by this post.
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Old 09-01-2007, 01:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


In response to that, it is becoming increasingly difficult to be a Christian in the United States and to live out my beliefs the way I wish, and unless you are one, you cannot say otherwise, so don't bother. It is difficult to be a Christian anywhere in the world. I'll never forget what one of my professors said last year. He said that in one country (I think in the middle east, I wish I could remember) if I was to go over there, walk down the middle of the street and say "I'm a Christian!", I would be shot on the spot. And as a formal military man and police officer, I believe him. Tell me that's not persecution. Last time I checked, we don't do that to Muslims here in the states.
You just gave evidence to her argument.

It isn't difficult!!! Quit trying to be a victim.
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