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Old 12-01-2004, 11:24 AM   #31
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Scripture that shows that:

1. God is not love
2. God changes
well clearly there are no verses that explicitely state that god is not love etc... but you can contrast the description of love given to us by paul with descrption of god in the ot and realize that they are incompatible. a 2 + 2 = 5 sort of thing.

for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...
exodus 20:5

for the LORD your God is...a jealous God.
deuteronomy 5:16

he is a jealous God.
joshua 24:19

+

[Love] does not envy.
1 corinthians 13:4

=

god is love (?)

------
or...
------

sodom and gomorrah; the great flood; ordered slaughter of entire city populations; animal sacrifices; etc...

+

[Love] is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs...always protects.
1 corinthians 13:5-7

=

god is love (?)

-----

seems pretty inconsistent to me. that's why i see the two honest options being that a) god is not love, or b) god changes.
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Old 12-01-2004, 11:26 AM   #32
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41
The way I understand it, the Hebrews followed a code of strict monotheism. All good comes from God--and so does all evil. The evil spirit that plagues Saul, for instance, is sent by God. Originally, there was no Satan figure because that was a compromise of monotheism. (Job is one exception, and you'll notice that The Adversary is portrayed as being a member of God's court, not exactly the Satan figure we are familiar with)
How does the Old Testament support the notion that all evil comes from God?

In Job, it is Satan who desires to test Job. Job 1:7 and Job 2:2 both describe Satan "roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." Hardly a description of a "member of God's court".


Quote:
Originally posted by AvsGirl41
After the fall of Israel to Babylon, if you read the prophets there is a real shift in perception. You start to see a move away from the "sins of the father" and into one of individual faith and responsibility. With Jeremiah, God establishes the internal covenant.
Do you have the reference for this covenant? I know that God established a number of covenants, but I cannot recall of the top of my head the one from Jeremiah.
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Old 12-01-2004, 11:27 AM   #33
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ah ha, I have read that part of the Bible Se7en! I think by jealous it is meant that it displeases Him when people don't love Him totally. Hmm this is tough, by displease I mean it makes Him sad/hurt because He wants our complete love.
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Old 12-01-2004, 11:41 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
well clearly there are no verses that explicitely state that god is not love etc... but you can contrast the description of love given to us by paul with descrption of god in the ot and realize that they are incompatible. a 2 + 2 = 5 sort of thing.

for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...
exodus 20:5

for the LORD your God is...a jealous God.
deuteronomy 5:16

he is a jealous God.
joshua 24:19

+

[Love] does not envy.
1 corinthians 13:4

=

god is love (?)
An interesting theory, but God clearly wants (demands) that we love Him alone ("Have no other gods before Me"). I don't see this as envy, but as a command and desire of God for our own good. God's love is a jealous love that desires that we keep Him in the center of our hearts.

It would be odd to suggest that if God is love, and love does not envy, then God would approve of our worship of other things.

Also, I think we get mixed up on the statement "God is love". The only time the statement appears in Scripture is as follows:

1 John 4:7-9 "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."


Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
sodom and gomorrah; the great flood; ordered slaughter of entire city populations; animal sacrifices; etc...

+

[Love] is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs...always protects.
1 corinthians 13:5-7

=

god is love (?)

-----

seems pretty inconsistent to me. that's why i see the two honest options being that a) god is not love, or b) god changes.
In this second example, you are using the definition of love to essentially elimiate God's role as Judge and Protector.

The Corinthians passage is directed to us, to direct us in our limited notion of love. God's love for His own can be shown in each of the examples above.
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Old 12-01-2004, 11:49 AM   #35
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I can understand how you feel about God and I have nothing against it. However, to sight an example, Jesus was angry quite a few times in the Gospel. It could've been because he was in the form of a man, but for sure God isn't always pleased with humanity. Yet he had the mercy to save us.

Yeah, I know, which is why I said I wasn't totally sure how I felt yet. Maybe b/c Jesus is both fully human AND fully divine so in order to be fully human, he was able to express anger? I dunno.
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


How does the Old Testament support the notion that all evil comes from God?

In Job, it is Satan who desires to test Job. Job 1:7 and Job 2:2 both describe Satan "roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." Hardly a description of a "member of God's court".

Do you have the reference for this covenant? I know that God established a number of covenants, but I cannot recall of the top of my head the one from Jeremiah.
Well, the simple fact that Satan, no matter how hard you look for him, is *not* mentioned in the Old Testament apart from Job.

Of course, you can argue the snake but understand that this was a belief that came about only in the Intertestamental-New Testament era. The apocryphal Book of Wisdom (if your Catholic or Orthodox, it's in the Bible, but neither the Jews or the Protestants recognize it) is the first to actually mention Satan as the snake, and the concept of original sin. Going strictly off the Hebrew Bible, the snake is just a crafty snake. (There is, of course, a difference between faith and history. My faith says the snake is Satan, but history did not always believe this to be the case.)

The most clear-cut case is, as I mentioned before, the affliction of Saul. "The spirit of the Lord had forsaken Saul, and at times an evil spirt from the Lord would seize him suddenly. His servants said to him 'You see how an evil spirit from God seizes you; sir, why do you not command your servants here to go and find someone who can play on the lyre? Then, when an evil spirit from God comes on you, he can play and you will recover" (1 Samuel 16:15-16) It doesn't say God had forsaken Saul, so Satan sent an evil spirit, as is the case with Job. It says God sent it. This is because, at this time, the Hebrews had not yet incorporated dualistic concepts into their faith.

As for Job, I suppose it's really a draw. The passage states "The day came when the members of the court of heaven took their places in the presence of the Lord, and the Adversary, Satan, was there among them. The Lord asked him where he had been..." You can take it to mean he doesn't have a permanent place in the court, but to me, "ranging over the earth" isn't any more concrete. In fact, God asks him where he's been. That seems to imply, to me, that if he's not a member, he's at least a frequent guest. Hardly the Lucifer, cast out of heaven, that we've come to recognize.

My Biblical footnote states, "Adversary: Hebrew "the satan," accuser, apparently a legal term and yet not the proper name for an evil being that it was to become later. The title and function possibly derive from the Persian secret police, and the duties would compare to those of a district attorney in the United States. The Adversary is the enemy of human beings, not of God."

The covenant of Jeremiah can be found in Jeremiah 31: 31-40.

"The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall establish a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, a covenant they broke, hough I was patient with them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant I shall establish with the Israelites after those days, says the Lord: I shall set my law within them, writing it on their hearts, I shall be their God and they will be my people. No longer need they teach one another, neighbor or brother, to know the Lord; all of them, high and low alike, will know me, says the Lord, for I shall forgive their wrong doing and their sin I shall call to mind no more"
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:54 PM   #37
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Here is where I am at this point in my life, and it is now that I find myself completely in a different place from 12 years ago.

I feel that they are completely the same God and that there was NO CHANGE.

I see again and again through the Old Testament right now the same God. I see a consistently forgiving God. I have been trying to look for the examples of the Grace of God. The more I see it, the more I am thinking like Pax, that the change is in the writers.

Jesus came not to abolish the law. God is consistent. Jesus to me brings new meaning to the same law for us.

I look at God choosing Abraham or even choosing Jacob over Esau, and I think wow, he is a forgiving God because these two are not even deserving, yet by God's grace, they are chosen.

I think Jesus was a physical representation of how the law was to be applied verses the way it was being applied.

All I know is 12 years ago all I saw was the vengeful God, and more and more, I think it was the writers who saw it that way. Ulitimately, God had to come down to straighten us out. For me, it is exciting to read the Old Testament believing in my heart that it is the same unchanged God of the new testament.

I am now officially babling.

--------------------------------------------

The Hebrews were not monothesitic through the early stages of Genesis. That is a misconception. They did recognize other gods, but believed theirs was THE GOD above all others. There is a term for this belief. I cannot remember it now.
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Old 12-01-2004, 12:55 PM   #38
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Thank you to all for staying on topic, and what I find excitingly shocking, is that no matter what our denominations, we are all really close to finding common ground.

Exciting stuff..
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

The Hebrews were not monothesitic through the early stages of Genesis. That is a misconception. They did recognize other gods, but believed theirs was THE GOD above all others. There is a term for this belief. I cannot remember it now.
You are right. It's henotheism--a god among many, a chief or head god and yes, the early Hebrews were of this school of thought. I think Genesis is one of the most facinating books to read for this reason! Such ancient, ancient stuff...

It was to diffentiate themselves from these other Near Eastern faiths that they adopted strict monotheism--our one God doesn't have or need a Goddess figure, he can have sons without one.
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:22 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
The Hebrews were not monothesitic through the early stages of Genesis. That is a misconception. They did recognize other gods, but believed theirs was THE GOD above all others. There is a term for this belief. I cannot remember it now.
The Hebrews recognized that other people followed other gods. They did not follow any other god - so I think you can call them monotheistic.
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:30 PM   #41
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Well, the simple fact that Satan, no matter how hard you look for him, is *not* mentioned in the Old Testament apart from Job.

Of course, you can argue the snake but understand that this was a belief that came about only in the Intertestamental-New Testament era.
I believe there are other references to Satan in the Old Testament. I have those at home and will follow-up later.

The fall of Satan is described in Isaiah 14

The snake as Satan is supported by the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:33 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Jesus came not to abolish the law. God is consistent. Jesus to me brings new meaning to the same law for us.

I look at God choosing Abraham or even choosing Jacob over Esau, and I think wow, he is a forgiving God because these two are not even deserving, yet by God's grace, they are chosen.

I think Jesus was a physical representation of how the law was to be applied verses the way it was being applied.
Study of the Old Testament is exciting when you see the consistency of God's message of grace throughout. The more we understand what it means to be Jewish, the more we understand what it means to be a Christian.
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:39 PM   #43
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The Hebrews recognized that other people followed other gods. They did not follow any other god - so I think you can call them monotheistic.
They became monotheistic.....

Henotheistic would describe them before they became monotheistic.
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:43 PM   #44
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You are right. It's henotheism--a god among many, a chief or head god and yes, the early Hebrews were of this school of thought. I think Genesis is one of the most facinating books to read for this reason! Such ancient, ancient stuff...

It was to diffentiate themselves from these other Near Eastern faiths that they adopted strict monotheism--our one God doesn't have or need a Goddess figure, he can have sons without one.
Thank you for refreshing my memory....

This means you are close to being as big a geek as me!
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Old 12-01-2004, 01:44 PM   #45
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The Hebrews, from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, always worshiped the same God. I think this was fairly consistent.
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