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Old 07-22-2005, 12:26 PM   #91
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bravo, Pax.

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Old 07-22-2005, 03:56 PM   #92
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
o

1. when does the fetus reach the age of viability medically speaking?
You will find differing answers depending on what you are specifically asking. Generally, it's accepted to be 28 weeks (and in Britain, this is the legally accepted age), but in some places, for legal purposes the window is stretched from 24-28 weeks.

I do see alcoholism as a disease. But I must speak up when people start comparing it to cancer. It's frankly silly. They are two completely different issues, one of which involves at least partially recovery via behavioural changes while the other does not. As an alcoholic you have the option of entering rehab and combined with a lot of different factors including counselling and so on, alter your behavioural patterns which predispose you to addiction. You cannot alter your genetic makeup, but it is possible to be rehabilitated without doing so. When you get leukemia, you have absolutely no recourse yourself when it comes to recovery.

Alcoholism is a disease, but baseless comparisons really kind of cheapen the argument, IMO.
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:26 PM   #93
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Originally posted by anitram


You will find differing answers depending on what you are specifically asking. Generally, it's accepted to be 28 weeks (and in Britain, this is the legally accepted age), but in some places, for legal purposes the window is stretched from 24-28 weeks.

I do see alcoholism as a disease. But I must speak up when people start comparing it to cancer. It's frankly silly. They are two completely different issues, one of which involves at least partially recovery via behavioural changes while the other does not. As an alcoholic you have the option of entering rehab and combined with a lot of different factors including counselling and so on, alter your behavioural patterns which predispose you to addiction. You cannot alter your genetic makeup, but it is possible to be rehabilitated without doing so. When you get leukemia, you have absolutely no recourse yourself when it comes to recovery.

Alcoholism is a disease, but baseless comparisons really kind of cheapen the argument, IMO.


i mean this as a serious question ... i understand your point about alcoholism, but what about cancers that arise as a result of behavior, i.e., skin cancer from deliberate, prolonged exposure to the sun; lung cancer from a pack-a-day habit; myriad cancers attributed to poor diet.
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:33 PM   #94
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Irvine, I agree.

I was not talking about the causes of the disease though, but the treatment of it. While cancer can be brought on by smoking and so on, you cannot send it into remission by altering your behaviour/lifestyle/diet/exposure to toxins once you have a malignancy. With alcoholism you still have the ability to control your disease and curb it through a change in lifestyle. Therein lies the difference between the two when it comes to medical treatment.
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:04 AM   #95
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I do not think comparing alcoholism to a disease like cancer is silly at all the way the comparison has been made in this thread, which is that in both cases some people respond to treatment and recover, and others don't. The AMA defines alcoholism as 'a chronic, progressive and potentially fatal disease' and while no one is arguing that point, we can see just in this thread alone how so many people don't really understand that. For me, the comparison to other diseases is important because even though the treatments are vastly different, and yes behavioral changes are necessary for one to recover from alcoholism and that may or may not make a difference in the treatment of diseases like cancer, it's important in that it gets people thinking compassionately about alcoholism and other addictions. A person with a genetic predisposition to heart disease may indulge in behaviors that trigger the disease at an earlier age than might happen if they were more disciplined in their lifestyle yet they aren't demonized the way that an alcoholic is, even though one could argue that a person with heart disease who has a family, for example, has a responsibility to take care of themselves and practice discipline in their lifestyle. People tend to get on their moral high horse about addictions and addictive behavior in a way that they never would when talking about a person with heart disease or cancer.

So I think it's important to keep reminding people that it is a disease and if the comparison to cancer gets the message through then I will continue to use the comparison. The point is that alcoholics deserve every bit of the respect and compassion that people with other diseases get.
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Old 07-23-2005, 09:24 AM   #96
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl

So I think it's important to keep reminding people that it is a disease and if the comparison to cancer gets the message through then I will continue to use the comparison. The point is that alcoholics deserve every bit of the respect and compassion that people with other diseases get.
I agree with you that it is a disease and that it must be dealt with in that way, both personally and socially.

However, as a cancer researcher, I strongly disagree with the comparison, but I object to it on scientific grounds and understand why you may still want to use it in a social setting.
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Old 07-23-2005, 10:29 AM   #97
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Originally posted by pax
Allow me to take a stab at this one.

Most people I know who are, at least politically speaking, pro-choice, are in favor of abortion within a limited window of time and circumstances. I don't know anyone who is actually okay with late-term or partial-birth abortion, unless absolutely medically necessary to save the life of the mother, but I and many others agree that abortion should be a legal option for a woman with a pregnancy she cannot handle, provided that option is explored during the early stages of development in which (as far as we can tell) the fetus has no central nervous system, limited or lack of capacity to feel pain, limited or no consciousness, etc.

Okay. So based on that, you could say that if this woman became pregnant and knew she (shall we say) enjoyed a drink from time to time, she had two choices: have a very early-term abortion, or quit drinking while pregnant. She did neither. Assuming that she knew of the risks of drinking heavily while pregnant but consciously chose to both carry the pregnancy to term and continue drinking, she can indeed be held responsible for her actions regardless of whether one approves of abortion or not, or whether one's government allows for legal early-term abortion or not.

I cannot stress this enough: Most pro-choice individuals do NOT believe that you can do "whatever you like" with your body, including a pregnant body. Rather, we believe that during the space of time in which a fetus is not viable to live outside the body and has minimal or no nervous system, abortion should be a legal option for women. Once the woman consciously and freely chooses to carry the pregnancy to term, and the fetus subsequently reaches viability, she can be held responsible for what happens to the fetus.

It's realistically and philosophically impossible to argue that a blastocyst is equivalent to a newborn.
Thank you for this brilliant post. You summed up exactly how I feel and have difficulty articulating.
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Old 07-23-2005, 06:04 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by xtal
Just wondering:

Am I the only alcoholic that has been through rehab in this thread?
xtal, I've been where you're at. You can write me at najeena@vashonisland.net if you want.
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Old 07-24-2005, 04:02 AM   #99
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Back to the issue of the woman giving birth while drunk.

While it would be very hard for me to kick alcohol completely while being pregnant, I do have faith in myself that I would be able to do that. But I have seen other pregnant women that just can't.
Can't and won't are two different things. Just like cancer and alcoholism are TWO DIFFERENT things. Ok? We all know that
I'm talking the similarities between the two. There are always similarities that others can see and others can't.

The main and base fact is that what this mother did is WRONG. And I agree she should be punished for it. Jail time, fines, rehabilitations, etc etc etc. Just as if it were a DUI. This woman has issues and is putting another life in danger and she should be punished as a DUI. If not worse.
But, I suggest that people around her should be punished as well. They knew she was pregnant, for fuck's sake, they saw her drinking, they sold her alcohol. There should be new laws that forbid pregnant women to buy or purchase alcohol and treat them like they are underage!!!!
I think everyone around a drinking pregnant woman should report it, or they should be punished as if they did the crime. If you so much as buy liquor for a pregnant woman and something happens with the baby, she should report you and you get slapped with the punishment, as should she.
Same thing with DUI, if you see someone getting into a car drunk and you have the ablility to stop it, you should report it BEFORE it happens- is this not common sense? And if YOU are found in a car with a drunk driver, the police should breathalize you and if YOU are under the limit, for fuck's sake, you should get charged with a crime too! Aiding and abiding a crime, you saw that the law was being broken, you went along with it, you are just as guilty as the person that was driving. There, you get slapped with a small jail time, fine, suspension of license. You learn not to let this happen again.

When I was caught for my DUI, I was driving a friend home from the bar. I wanted to get a cab, but we decided against it. When I got caught, she was taken home, I was taken to jail. Now if I had murdered someone and she just watched and didn't report- well that's a different story huh? She was much more sober than I was too. I think this is wrong and this should change. I never get in the car with a drunk driver nowadays, and although I don't call the cops on someone that I think is going to commit drunk driving, I either call a cab for them or I get someone sober to drive their car when they aren't being cooperative. I warn them that if this should happen again and I'm around, I'm calling the police on their dumb drunk ass.

Prevention is the key people. PREVENTION.

You can't change the world, but you can change the little world that is currently around you.

If you see a person driving drunk, help them. Take all measures before calling the cops on them, and if that doesn't work, call the cops. If you see a pregnant woman drinking, take all measures to stop them. If that doesn't work, punch her out, there are no laws against that in this wonderful FAS'd-populated America.

I kid, I kid.

But really, let's get over this what alcoholism is and isn't. 51% of people believe it's short-term and behavioural-based sickness and 49% believe it's a disease.
Let's try and change this problem. Letting pregnant mothers drink. Make and pass some laws that forbid that.

My fetal alcohol syndrome cousin, Sharli, is now 14. She's a beautiful girl. A little different looking, but nonetheless still a human being with feelings, she's smart and normal too.
And she still loves her mother to this day, with no hesitance or grudges.

I love America, but I see so many new laws that should be addressed and made into effect.
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