Okla. Woman Said to Give Birth While Drunk - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-20-2005, 05:11 AM   #76
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by xtal
Does anyone know what PAWS is?

I cry, and argue, and I lose my temper. It's like PMS, but it doesn't go away until I get a drink.
PAWS. Psychological acute withdrawal symptoms.
I wonder if that's part of why a friend is so mad at me right now. He hasn't had a drink in awhile.

Quote:
Originally posted by xtal

I've been through rehab twice now.
My family has just about given up on me.
Someone (the above mentioned friend) who is like a brother to me is an alcoholic/addict and was in rehab earlier this year. I and his friends and family have been dealing with it for years. We've come close to losing him a few times. We love him so much and we will never ever give up on him.
__________________

__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 05:26 AM   #77
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 07:34 AM
Was it disclosed if this woman was an alcoholic, or just incredibly stupid?
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 05:43 AM   #78
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Was it disclosed if this woman was an alcoholic, or just incredibly stupid?
Fair question. It seems that all of us are making a lot of assumptions--the people who lack an understanding of alcoholism assume she was just stupid, and those of us with experience with alcoholism either directly or indirectly are assuming she's an alcoholic. She could very well just be stupid and abusing alcohol which is very different than being dependent on it. But the fact that she drank enough throughout her pregnancy to cause fetal alcohol syndrome leads me to think she has a serious problem with alcohol. Either way, it is tragic.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 05:56 AM   #79
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Then I truly don't understand. Does alcoholism mean that a person is addicted to alcohol, or is it more than that? My father was addicted to alcohol. But he did indeed give it up, through God's power.

Many people drink heavily to the point that it interferes with their lives without actually being chemically dependent on alcohol. This is alcohol abuse, not addiction, and those who abuse alcohol can often quit rather easily. It seems to me that George Bush falls into this category. Alcohol abuse can look like alcoholism but the difference is that it is more of a psychological addiction than an actual physical chemical addiction. Those with a physical chemical addiction to alcohol are never actually cured even if they stop drinking through treatment, and generally are unable to stop without outside treatment. That said, I also believe God can cure anyone but I believe even that is done using the tools available in the world--i.e., treatment.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:29 AM   #80
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by xtal
I take it I'm the only alcoholic in here.
I have done a 28 day stay in a rehab where all they do is teach you what it is, who it affects, what causes it and so on. We are forced to read books on this sickness, books by doctors and scientists, some with proven facts, some defying other myths.
So Irvine, I don't quite understand your comment that it's so hard to sit in self-righteous, feel-good condemnation when confronted with facts.
I know the facts because I've done studies on alcoholism, I've read just about every single book on alcoholism out there- not by choice- it was a requirement by my rehab program.
I also am an alcoholic myself.
And I'm not trying to attack anyone that is not alcoholic, but some people don't have a fucken clue what people like me have to go through.
That is SO not being self-righteous!
I don't think that was directed at you.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:58 AM   #81
Refugee
 
Sue DeNym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Beautiful Pacific Northwest!
Posts: 1,608
Local Time: 12:34 PM
When I was pregnant, I felt guilty when I had a Pepsi!

Another link to the story:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...51tanner1.html
__________________
Sue DeNym is offline  
Old 07-20-2005, 09:06 AM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sue DeNym

Another link to the story:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...51tanner1.html
Ok, after seeing the picture and reading the story I think I can answer Angela's question now.

Quote:
Was it disclosed if this woman was an alcoholic, or just incredibly stupid?
Both.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 07-21-2005, 12:00 AM   #83
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 07:34 AM
Thank you guys.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 10:18 AM   #84
Blue Crack Addict
 
U2MaNaIcWeIdO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having fun with the changing weather in Illinois...and wanting to meet Bono again. Please...for christ sakes call me Weldy!!!!
Posts: 29,231
Local Time: 03:34 PM
__________________
U2MaNaIcWeIdO is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:05 AM   #85
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 02:34 PM
back into the chilly waters...

nb, i think brought up some interesting points that were immediately dismissed out of hand instead of actually taking the time to address the issues. it's easier to right off the intentions of the argument, then to address the argument itself, especially when the argument in question might cause you to reexamine your own positions.

now, in the first few posts, someone commented that she was irresponsible because she harmed a life that was growing inside her. no one has refuted this claim. most of the judgements passed on this woman are based on this claim. she deserved to be punnished because she harmed another life. however, in other threads (and as a seemingly generally accepted fact) however, their is no "other life" inside her body. the fetus is simply another part of the woman's body until after it is born, and ceases to be connected to the mother.

i skimmed through a lot of the middle pages, but to my knowledge, no one has made the claim that the simple act of consuming alcolhol is wrong, granted you are of age, and provided that you obey the law while drinking. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think it is fair to say that people are free to make the choice to consume alcolhol, even to their own detriment, because they have a right to make the choices which affect their own body.

now i know, that this still might be a huge jump in logic, with no logical connection between the two (though it seems that this accusation would be made no matter how air-tight the logic might have been [and i certainly don't claim mine to be air-tight]), but, if this fetus is simply an extension of the mother's body, with no life of its own, no rights of its own, and the mother has the right of choice regarding her body (including the legal consumption of alcolhol), then how can a judgement be passed on this woman?one could take pity on her, just as one takes pity on someone who drinks until their liver goes. but one cannot say that she acted outside of the accepted standards of responsiblity.

however, if we are to pass judgement on her, as most seem ready to do, it starts with the claim that the fetus growing inside of this woman had an intrinsic right to life itself, and also a certain quality of life (i.e. not suffering from handicaps stemming from the mother's drinking). if this is the claim to be made, it would seem only natural that the same standards would be applicable in other situations as well.
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:17 AM   #86
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 04:34 PM
Allow me to take a stab at this one.

Most people I know who are, at least politically speaking, pro-choice, are in favor of abortion within a limited window of time and circumstances. I don't know anyone who is actually okay with late-term or partial-birth abortion, unless absolutely medically necessary to save the life of the mother, but I and many others agree that abortion should be a legal option for a woman with a pregnancy she cannot handle, provided that option is explored during the early stages of development in which (as far as we can tell) the fetus has no central nervous system, limited or lack of capacity to feel pain, limited or no consciousness, etc.

Okay. So based on that, you could say that if this woman became pregnant and knew she (shall we say) enjoyed a drink from time to time, she had two choices: have a very early-term abortion, or quit drinking while pregnant. She did neither. Assuming that she knew of the risks of drinking heavily while pregnant but consciously chose to both carry the pregnancy to term and continue drinking, she can indeed be held responsible for her actions regardless of whether one approves of abortion or not, or whether one's government allows for legal early-term abortion or not.

I cannot stress this enough: Most pro-choice individuals do NOT believe that you can do "whatever you like" with your body, including a pregnant body. Rather, we believe that during the space of time in which a fetus is not viable to live outside the body and has minimal or no nervous system, abortion should be a legal option for women. Once the woman consciously and freely chooses to carry the pregnancy to term, and the fetus subsequently reaches viability, she can be held responsible for what happens to the fetus.

It's realistically and philosophically impossible to argue that a blastocyst is equivalent to a newborn.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:21 AM   #87
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 04:34 PM
More on my last sentence:

Margaret Farley, a (gasp) Catholic ethicist who (gasp) serves on President Bush's bioethical advisory council, has even conceded that final point. Why? Because a shocking number of fertilized eggs never make it to implantation, and are passed in a woman's menses without her ever having the slightest inkling that she could have been pregnant. Farley's stance is that if these fertilized eggs were actually living beings, God would not choose to have up to 75 percent of them flushed out during menses.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:23 AM   #88
Babyface
 
some girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7
Local Time: 12:34 PM
Quote:
a friend quoted by cops said that after the baby was born, she asked Tanner what the girl was going to be named. Tanner, the friend told deputies, replied, "Maybe Milwaukee's Best."

That woman should rot in jail.
__________________
some girl is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:34 AM   #89
War Child
 
shrmn8rpoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Seward, NE
Posts: 516
Local Time: 02:34 PM
okay, even if i don't completely agree, i can still understand where you're coming from. also, i apparently am far less informed about the stances of pro-choicers than i imagined myself to be.

so, the issues are less black and white, and instead many shades of grey it appears.

which leads to a couple of questions that i have now

1. when does the fetus reach the age of viability medically speaking?

2. is the mother still responsible for welfare of the fetus before that point?

3. should the fetus who has not yet reached the age of viability have implicit rights due to the fact that if left to develop naturally and normally (though as you stated, the fetus can also cease to exist through natural causes) it will reach the age of viability?

4. would this woman have been at fault if she had consumed alcolhol and harmed the infant before it had reached the age of viability (but had not consumed any after the infant had reached that point)?
__________________
shrmn8rpoptart is offline  
Old 07-22-2005, 11:49 AM   #90
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart

so, the issues are less black and white, and instead many shades of grey it appears.


Such issues are rarely black and white.

Quote:

1. when does the fetus reach the age of viability medically speaking?


I'm hoping anitram or someone better biologically informed than myself chimes in on this one, because I'm honestly not certain. Viability means that the fetus can survive outside the womb. Advanced medical intervention has kept preemies alive at ever-younger ages, five months being the youngest, I believe (like, born after five months in the womb).

Quote:

2. is the mother still responsible for welfare of the fetus before that point?


That's a tricky question. Even today, couples often choose to wait until a pregnancy is a few months along to announce it to the world, because spontaneous idiopathic miscarriages are more likely in the first and early second trimesters. I would say that if she has chosen to carry on with the pregnancy, she should act as responsibly as possible, but a lot can go wrong in the early months of pregnancy, even with very conscientious mothers.

Quote:
3. should the fetus who has not yet reached the age of viability have implicit rights due to the fact that if left to develop naturally and normally (though as you stated, the fetus can also cease to exist through natural causes) it will reach the age of viability?


Excellent question. It seems, on one hand, hard to say no. On the other, how can you confer rights to someone/something that has no nervous system, no ability to feel pain, etc.? At a very early point, your cat or dog has more of a nervous system than a developing fetus.

I suspect, then, that a developing fetus would, theoretically, have the right to be treated humanely and allowed to develop as normally as possible once it reaches a point at which it has substantial nervous development and ability to feel pain. Even then, though, there are no guarantees. As I mentioned, even pregnancies conscientiously cared for can go radically wrong for almost no reason.

Quote:

4. would this woman have been at fault if she had consumed alcolhol and harmed the infant before it had reached the age of viability (but had not consumed any after the infant had reached that point)?
I think the woman would be at fault if she consumed substantial amounts of alcohol while knowing she was pregnant and knowing she would not have an abortion. There is some evidence that small amounts of alcohol early in a pregnancy are harmless (for example, if a woman who likes a glass of wine with dinner continues to drink before she discovers that she's pregnant). It's heavy drinking, perpetuated throughout all stages of fetal development, that will substantially damage the fetus.

I should add here, hoping that I've answered your questions, that with the guaranteed legal right to abortion does, to me, also carry some responsibilities. Meaning if you skip even one period and you're sexually active, take a pregnancy test--they're ten bucks at the drugstore. If you can't afford one, many, many agencies will perform pregnancy tests for free or on a sliding scale. Talk with your partner about what you would do if you faced an unplanned pregnancy BEFORE you become sexually active. Practice consistent and reliable birth control with a backup method each and every time you have sex. These steps, taken consistently by all women and their partners, would drastically reduce the number of abortions. As would comprehensive, honest, neutral sex education in public schools.
__________________

__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com