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Old 07-19-2005, 02:39 PM   #31
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I think by keeping the baby she made her choice ( with the responsibility that goes with it ) so she should face the punishmend.


I agree with what is said here before, she should have help long before this.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:43 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i haven't said a word about abortion -- only that there are people in here who will take any and all opportunities to bring it up, even when it has nothing to do with the issue at hand unless one is willing to make radical, logically absurd simplifications. my statements were about your bridging of the issues, not the issues themselves.

and you're using terms like "personal choice" or "She chooses to eliminate the child from her body, and we would cheer on that right" that are clearly inflammatory.

and, again, i'm not debating abortion.

i'm debating both your logic and your intentions.
Stick to the logic. We spend too much time debating intentions and stirring shit.

Throughout a number of threads, we debate the breadth of rights of personal choice. Melissa Tanner made a choice. No where have we suggested that alcohol should be a controlled substance. Yet without much analysis, we have condemned her to various punishments up to and including death.

On what principle (consistently applied) do you step in and tell Melissa Tanner she can't drink alcohol? And how do you compare this to other things she is permitted to do to her body?
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:45 PM   #33
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as a person who has taught a number of children with FASD, this story upsets me to no end. for fuck's sake, it's 100% preventable.

thoughts and prayers go out to this child who, through no fault of her own, may be rendered completely dependent for the rest of her life, depending on the extent of her disability.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:48 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Irvine511
just let it be known that it is almost always the pro-life/anti-choice crowd who seek any and all opportunities to jump back into those chilly waters.
In the various Supreme Court threads we have had recently, it is usually the pro-choicers that take the opportunity to 'jump back into those chilly waters'.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:50 PM   #35
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She is an adult. She knows there are programs out there to help. But no one's going to force her to get help; she needs to decide to do it. She never did that. She is the offender in this case, not the victim.
you make it seem like conquering alcoholism is like curing a common cold. maybe she should have gone to the drug store and just picked herself up some alco-quil.

and i never said she was the victim.

now i remember why i try to only read FYM and not post in it.

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Old 07-19-2005, 02:53 PM   #36
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Originally posted by bonosgirl84


you make it seem like conquering alcoholism is like curing a common cold. maybe she should have gone to the drug store and just picked herself up some alco-quil.

and i never said she was the victim.

now i remember why i try to only read FYM and not post in it.

I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
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Old 07-19-2005, 02:56 PM   #37
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
Good for your dad he was not pregnant when he was a alcoholic.
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:46 PM   #38
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Old 07-19-2005, 03:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
From this article we actually do not have any idea what choices she has made over the years towards getting help. Many people are in and out of rehab for years or even a lifetime. Relapse is part of the disease. I cannot understand not having compassion for someone with any disease.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:01 PM   #40
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


From this article we actually do not have any idea what choices she has made over the years towards getting help. Many people are in and out of rehab for years or even a lifetime. Relapse is part of the disease. I cannot understand not having compassion for someone with any disease.
If your baby's life is on the line, you make tough decisions, and you are able to do things that are very difficult.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:16 PM   #41
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


If your baby's life is on the line, you make tough decisions, and you are able to do things that are very difficult.
Some people, yes. Others, no. Until you've walked in those shoes, don't be so quick to judge. And even if you have walked in those shoes, don't be so quick to judge another for not being able to do what you could.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:28 PM   #42
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Unfortunately alcoholism is a disease and many people cannot "just quit". It takes a lot of hard work to stop engaging in an addictive habit. Perhaps this will be the tragedy that forces her to face what is going on.
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Old 07-19-2005, 04:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I know it's not easy. My Dad was an alcoholic for many years. He quit.

All I'm saying is that I can feel no compassion for this woman since she made the choice not to get help to stop drinking, whcih is a deadly choice, especially when she found out she was pregnant.
Alcoholics don't "quit." And if your father is an alcoholic, you shouldn't say he *was* an alcoholic. He's in recovery.

I find the whole thing disgusting, and sad above all, but don't you think it's pretty cold of you to say you feel no compassion whatsoever for the woman?
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Old 07-19-2005, 05:05 PM   #44
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Thank you VertigoGal, joyfulgirl and MissMoo. Alcoholism is a disease and its not as simple as saying its a choice the alcoholic makes and they can quit whenever they want if they just ask for help.

My father was an alcoholic and died due to alcohol related liver problems. I'm sure he didn't relish spending his last days in agony due to internal bleeding but even that didn't stop his desire to drink. He knew full well that it was killing him every time he opened a beer but he couldn't stop. He drank up until the day he slipped into a coma. I think if it was as easy as just quitting, he would have done it when they told him he was going to die if he kept drinking.

Someone far gone enough to drink daily while they are pregnant needs serious help...she's not blameless by any means and she should be punished but she's sick, not simply a horrible criminal who purposely hurt her baby.
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Old 07-19-2005, 05:13 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Bono's American Wife

My father was an alcoholic and died due to alcohol related liver problems. I'm sure he didn't relish spending his last days in agony due to internal bleeding but even that didn't stop his desire to drink. He knew full well that it was killing him every time he opened a beer but he couldn't stop. He drank up until the day he slipped into a coma. I think if it was as easy as just quitting, he would have done it when they told him he was going to die if he kept drinking.

I'm so sorry about your father.

My mom was an active alcoholic throughout her pregnancies with both her brother and me, we were both born 7 weeks premature as a result, although luckily with no lasting effects (well my bro has learning disabilites, but who doesn't). She also miscarried at 7 months one time. It was sure as hell not what she wanted, as much as certain religious groups would like to downplay the fact that it's a DISEASE and try to shame alcoholics. Luckily she got help, cos it would have killed her in the end.
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