Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

[AussieU2fanman]

Okay, this relates to all religions, but more specifically Christianity. You guys are gonna be pissed at me and several of you 'realists' may agree with me.

God doesn't exist. Jesus was either just a good man who :
never claimed to be God, claimed to be god or simply never existed. This man was perfect to become the figurehead of a new Jewish Sect. This religion was desperately needed as a relief from Paganism (which taught that God hated humans) and the Jewish law that was very burdonsome (circumcision). Years and years later of ORAL history (we all know how reliable that is!) the Gospels were written, where Jesus was made into this God-like creature that could heal people, and resurrect from the dead! From then on, bullshit after bullshit was layed upon these doctrines and the Bible and WHAZOO, we have Christianity.
The gospels were written by groups of people (eg John). These people were relying on history that came down after generations via word of mouth. The Gospels are either purely ficticious (to create Jesus into this almighty figure) or they were gathered from information from word of mouth. Now come on people, how could any of you believe a WORD the Bible says! It baffles me! People that live their lives by the Bible are, in my opinion, quit ignorant. I can't put it any other way. And by the way, if God supposedly gave us reason, why must we abide by his rules and not use our own judgement (I admire the ethics of Humanism!).

FACT - Did you guys know that Original Sin was purely made up to get members into the Church? All people are born with sin until they are BAPTIZTED where they are cleansed (bullshit). It must be done at birth to secure members into the Church, like a marketing tool. Very dishonest and sneaky, would Jesus make up a lie like that!?

FACT - Christianity started as blackmail. If you give 100 bits of gold to the Church, your time in purgatory will be reduced to 500 years, if you don't, you will have to wait for 5000 years!

I could go on and on, but I won't. People that believe in any religion fascinate me. Did they really make an independent leap of faith or are they merely holding on in order for salvation (You wouldn't want to burn in hell with all the fire and sharp things! BTW this scare tactic which the Church implemented is downright mean to those gullible\slow people).

Look there are so many things I hate about religion, especially Christianity, but I won't go on. But I am deeply interested religion, how it acts as a tool to control people by those few in power. (Christian doctrine could only be changed by the rich and powerful). As you guys could guess, I am an athiest, been all my life. I couldn't give myself ONE REASON to believe anything that was told to me about Christianity. I searched, I failed. I was a forced Catholic that went to Church every week (and still does, my parents force me to!!), that woke up and realized that, religion is an invention by humans for humans for regulating the lower classes (in the old days), as a revenue generator. However, you people all need religion, not me, you guys. Without it, there will be chaos obviously.

I'll end with a quote from U2's Last Night on Earth : "THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE LESS YOU BELIEVE" (Think about it)

You guys all hate me now, please reply angriliy or reply with other reasons why Christianity should be condemned!

 

[A_Wanderer]

It is not your place to condemn peoples beliefs, their belief is no more valid than your own thoughts on the subject. By condeming the followers of the bible as "plain fucking stupid" it does nothing for anybody. You would be offending many members of this board and as a matter of fact you are offending me.

I find the human spirit is not a divine thing, simply that one piece that humanity has and other animals do not. I think that it drives us all to better things. I have no problem if somebody can see the divine in the human spirit or will use holy books as inspiration, provided it does not hurt anybody.

By claiming supiriority over others because of your beliefs you are as bad as any bible thumping religious bigot, a little more tollerance and human compassion is all that it takes to make the world a better place.

In the final analysis people must live their lives the way they want to, it is better for everybody if people can lead moral lives. Religion can give structure and inspire people to make things better, nobody should ever try to take that away and make others ashamed of their beliefs (as long as it doesn't hurt anybody).

Reverse the situation, how would you feel if some jerk started mouthing off and calling you a fuckwit because you don't believe?

Putting every bit of bad done by secular governments as proof that absence of religion is immoral and bad?

 

[Kieran McConville]

Well I didn't read past your first sentence. I'm no zealot by any means but you cannot tell me there was no Jesus (or God), as an assertion out of thin air, and expect me to take you seriously.

You aren't making much sense, sorry. But then again, nor is anyone else in this Goddamned forum.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Is it just me or is 'inflammatory' the working model for FYM posting now?

I can't agree with the radical athiests because I DO believe in GOD, and I can't agree with the Christian rightwingers because I find their beliefs a radical distortion of my Christian faith. Guess I'm fresh out of luck, guys!

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Well I didn't read past your first sentence. I'm no zealot by any means but you cannot tell me there was no Jesus (or God), as an assertion out of thin air, and expect me to take you seriously.

You aren't making much sense, sorry. But then again, nor is anyone else in this Goddamned forum.

Thin air? Isn't that where this religion was born in? Or are you just believing and standing by what you have been told? What's there too lose? If we believe and its true, we win. If we believe and it's ficticious, so what? Many people thought\think like this.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah, the Pascal model for belief, infinite gain and negligable loss?

Christianity didn't just pop out of thin air, it is a collection of millenia of myths and legends. Adapted into holy texts which were taken up as belief. It shows examples of morality and can help people live their lives.

Everybody needs to have faith in something, if you dont then you will lead a very empty life.

This seems to be a trollish post, pure flamebait.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Look, friend, I am not going to argue about this. You can't just pull a statement like 'there is no Jesus' out of your ass, and expect to be taken seriously. Don't you get it? You want to come across as a rationalist, but you are coming on with a statement that demands a reaction of faith - ie. there is no God because you believe there is no God.

Honestly, I am anything but a devoutly religious person. But I just don't like shoddy rhetoric.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

It is not your place to condemn peoples beliefs, their belief is no more valid than your own thoughts on the subject. By condeming the followers of the bible as "plain fucking stupid" it does nothing for anybody. You would be offending many members of this board and as a matter of fact you are offending me.

I find the human spirit is not a divine thing, simply that one piece that humanity has and other animals do not. I think that it drives us all to better things. I have no problem if somebody can see the divine in the human spirit or will use holy books as inspiration, provided it does not hurt anybody.

By claiming supiriority over others because of your beliefs you are as bad as any bible thumping religious bigot, a little more tollerance and human compassion is all that it takes to make the world a better place.

In the final analysis people must live their lives the way they want to, it is better for everybody if people can lead moral lives. Religion can give structure and inspire people to make things better, nobody should ever try to take that away and make others ashamed of their beliefs (as long as it doesn't hurt anybody).

Reverse the situation, how would you feel if some jerk started mouthing off and calling you a fuckwit because you don't believe?

Putting every bit of bad done by secular governments as proof that absence of religion is immoral and bad?

The forum is FREE YOUR MIND - not literally? Or just to an extent where we don't endanger the social cohesion in society which leads to turmoil. It shouldn't offend anybody, you many be shocked, angered, but not offended as I thought this whole forum was meant to empasize opinions and viewpoints. Or is that just for the people that are 'right', you guys? I was just 'freeing my mind' with my own viewpoints on the whole area of religion.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well you may make a point but saying other peoples opinions are plain fucking stupid makes no sense. I am no friend to religion but I know when there is a breach of ettiquite, be rational and balanced and maintain a certain level of respect for those you disagree with.

You can get a lot furthur by asking the questions than by calling peoples beliefs fucking stupid. A little respect for eachother ensures that people can free their mind and look at it from the other perspective.

Offended by the way you made the argument, not the argument itself. Hell I agree with you that Christianity is based on a sham, but I wouldn't go around calling believers mugs. Its that self-righteous behaviour that causes so much of the shit in the world in the first place. I fear the man who knows that he is always right more than somebody who considers what they are doing.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Excuse me while I go get my freedom on.

Don't cry persecution, mate. Any political forum includes the right to be CHALLENGED. Nobody ever seems to get that bit.

Let's talk about the new U2 album or something. On second thoughts, let's not.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Ah, the Pascal model for belief, infinite gain and negligable loss?

Christianity didn't just pop out of thin air, it is a collection of millenia of myths and legends. Adapted into holy texts which were taken up as belief. It shows examples of morality and can help people live their lives.

Everybody needs to have faith in something, if you dont then you will lead a very empty life.

This seems to be a trollish post, pure flamebait.

Of course, everybody must have a faith, it is a fundamental element to the sustaination of life and sanity. I agree with you. I personally don't have any faith (how can your soul to anything even though you have no real basis for it is beyond me. If you disagree with me, please tell me WHY you take your leaps of faith, I would love to know, I didn't come here to stir, but understand.) I wasn't condemning people for having a faith, that's fine, I'm just expressing my views on why I disagree with this certain 'faith.' But you all need it nevertheless

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I changed 'fucking stupid' to 'quite ignorant' to make people not write me off at the sighting of a curse word.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Reverse the situation, how would you feel if some jerk started mouthing off and calling you a fuckwit because you don't believe?
[/B]

Originally I said people that follow the Bible PURELY, ie. word for word, those 'fanatics' are 'f****** s*****,' which was probably pretty harsh. But I wasn't referring to everyone! Please keep it in context.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Not a faith, faith. Confidence in something, a thing in this world that can be counted on, something that will not falter. I am not religious, I am an atheist but I do think that all the good that people see in God is really a reflection of the good in people. Faith in humanity is difficult to bear, knowing how much evil is done by man - but seeing those selfless acts it restores that faith that there are enough good people to fight back against the evil that persists in this world.

Now I do not consider my absence of belief to make me or my ideas any better than other peoples (with a few notable exceptions e.g. Christian Right, Islamic Fundamentalists, Pagans) because if you look at the universe, a big blob of energy and matter smashed over a heap of dimensions there is enough uncertainty to keep the existence of God or a creator a distinct possibility.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Not a faith, faith. Confidence in something, a thing in this world that can be counted on, something that will not falter. I am not religious, I am an atheist but I do think that all the good that people see in God is really a reflection of the good in people. Faith in humanity is difficult to bear, knowing how much evil is done by man - but seeing those selfless acts it restores that faith that there are enough good people to fight back against the evil that persists in this world.

Now I do not consider my absence of belief to make me or my ideas any better than other peoples (with a few notable exceptions e.g. Christian Right, Islamic Fundamentalists, Pagans) because if you look at the universe, a big blob of energy and matter smashed over a heap of dimensions there is enough uncertainty to keep the existence of God or a creator a distinct possibility.

I agree with you to some extent mate. I wasn't making my stance on how I defined 'faith' clear enough. Indeed, the illusionary effect (I believe) of goodness that God creates does bring about goodness in people, and yes it may even reach the extent where it overpowers evil in the world. Faith brings out the best in people, even if it's false, religion\faith is indeed serving it's function (as Moore and Habel would describe it).

This may not directly relate to your last point, but this uncertainty created over a heap of deimension mashed together etc, and how that creates a possibility of a God, is something I choose not to accept. We must think, who then created God, and who created the being that created God? Logically, the only place to draw the line is, in my mind, right at the start.

 

[A_Wanderer]

There is no logical paradox because time is a dimension within the universe, in the absence of the universe there isn't time. Things may be different, branes floating in a higher dimensional space who knows?

There is nobody who can definitively say that there is or is not a God because if given infinite possibilities it is a logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist. It is interesting to consider something like that, now if God decided to show himself only to a few notable madmen over the course of human history and make this pathetic little ball of rock the most crutial part of all creation - well that is a bit more of a stretch and I would agree that every bit of religious text is bunk, but it's bunk that has some very good knowledge in there as well as a whole lot of bad stuff.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

BTW how old are you guys? I am only 17, and I find that U2 fans are very intellectual. You look at any other collaboration of fans from genres like rap\pop\hip-hop, they are vastly different to you people. I can't stand them. I guess the intellect in U2's music arrouses the interest of intellectual people obviously (you guys). Hey I can kinda relate to people finally!

GO VERTIGO GO! 8 more days ppl! WOOOO!

 

[A_Wanderer]

I am in uni, I am only a few years older than you and also an Aussie. I was contemptuous of peoples beliefs when I was your age but lets just say that I have been humbled by a few people with faith and knowledge. If you want to see the fruits of self righteous atheism to create a perfect society the Soviet Union is a great example, the destruction wrought upon the religious institutions was evil. I suggest (if you haven't allready) that you go out and read some philosophy on the subject of faith and puropse, existentialism etc. Sartre, Camus are good starting points. They are too often just French intellectuals grinding frivilous points about the dark meaninglessness of existence but it can help you get a lay of the land so to speak.

 

[verte76]

I'll just say that I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing Catholic Christian. I do respect other people's views to the contrary.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

There is no logical paradox because time is a dimension within the universe, in the absence of the universe there isn't time. Things may be different, branes floating in a higher dimensional space who knows?

There is nobody who can definitively say that there is or is not a God because if given infinite possibilities it is a logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist. It is interesting to consider something like that, now if God decided to show himself only to a few notable madmen over the course of human history and make this pathetic little ball of rock the most crutial part of all creation - well that is a bit more of a stretch and I would agree that every bit of religious text is bunk, but it's bunk that has some very good knowledge in there as well as a whole lot of bad stuff.

Of course I cannot definatively write off the possibility of there not being a God as FACT, 100% true. Just like anyone can't say that God 100% exists, I tried to set up my argument in the form that it was purely an informed opinion, open to a margin of error. I got flamed by not making my angle of attack clear enough.

Anyway, I disagree where a you said a 'logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist.' Like I said before, according to my logic, without any real knowledge of God at all, just an illusionary (IMO again) image of one, the line must be drawn at the start. What we do know however, is that of science, and that is where the line should logically be drawn in my mind.

 

[Laura M]

God doesn't exist. Jesus was either just a good man who :
never claimed to be God, claimed to be god or simply never existed. This man was perfect to become the figurehead of a new Jewish Sect. This religion was desperately needed as a relief from Paganism (which taught that God hated humans) and the Jewish law that was very burdonsome (circumcision). Years and years later of ORAL history (we all know how reliable that is!) the Gospels were written, where Jesus was made into this God-like creature that could heal people, and resurrect from the dead! From then on, bullshit after bullshit was layed upon these doctrines and the Bible and WHAZOO, we have Christianity.
The gospels were written by groups of people (eg John). These people were relying on history that came down after generations via word of mouth. The Gospels are either purely ficticious (to create Jesus into this almighty figure) or they were gathered from information from word of mouth. Now come on people, how could any of you believe a WORD the Bible says! It baffles me! People that live their lives by the Bible are, in my opinion, quit ignorant. I can't put it any other way.

I could go on and on, but I won't. People that believe in any religion fascinate me. Did they really make an independent leap of faith or are they merely holding on in order for salvation (You wouldn't want to burn in hell with all the fire and sharp things! BTW this scare tactic which the Church implemented is downright mean to those gullible\slow people).

Some people are brought up in a certain faith, others find the faith which they feel suits them most. I doubt most of them are just holding on for salvation. And hell being described as being full of sharp things? Where did you get that one from? I thought hell was described in the bible as a place full of "darkness" and "everlasting punishment"

However, you people all need religion, not me, you guys. Without it, there will be chaos obviously.

In my opinon, everyone needs something. Religion for some people is a way to keep structure in their life. My Gran used to say that everytime she was in trouble God helped her see clearly, she said that going to mass and saying the rosary was part of her routine and it kept her in check. Regardless of whether or not God exists religion was something that was stable in her life and Ican't say that's a bad thing.

I think you are being offensive to peoples beliefs here. So, it's alright for you to say God doesn't exist because you have some 'facts' which you believe are solid proof for why he never existed and we should all believe you? Where did you get your 'facts' from? Are they really that credible?

And by the way, if God supposedly gave us reason, why must we abide by his rules and not use our own judgement (I admire the ethics of Humanism!).

Sorry? I thought we were allowed to use our own judgement. God creates everyone with free will. It is up to us to use our judgement to follow a good life. I read somewhere once that evil existed because of people using their free choice to disobey god and follow a deceitful life.

 

[U2Kitten]

I'll just say that I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing Catholic Christian. I do respect other people's views to the contrary.

I can respect other people's views IF they respect mine and everyone else's, but this person obviously doesn't. He thinks he has all the answers and everyone else is stupid, and that is presumptuous, rude and illogical. I've heard people who go to various different churches say that they are right and everyone else is wrong/stupid/going to hell and that is bad too. We can all believe what we want, but it isn't nice to diss anyone else's views. And if he has proof that God doesn't exist, he must be privvy to some information no one else has, because no one has ever been able to prove or disprove his existence since the beginning of time.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I know my physics, and what I am talking about here is infinite.

Infinite is a difficult concept to grasp, it elluded humanity almost as much as zero.

If there are regions in all of what exists that can have different physical laws and dimensions and that there are an infinite number of permutations of there and an infinite permutation of particles within it is a logical conclusion that every possible scenario capable of existing must occur. There must be a 2 dimensional universe that is just like The Simpsons if it conforms to that universes physical laws. Infinite is just that, infinite. There must be some situation whereby the existence of God can be governed by particular physical laws and science.

Now to wrap your mind around infinite I pose you this; 1/0

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I am in uni, I am only a few years older than you and also an Aussie. I was contemptuous of peoples beliefs when I was your age but lets just say that I have been humbled by a few people with faith and knowledge. If you want to see the fruits of self righteous atheism to create a perfect society the Soviet Union is a great example, the destruction wrought upon the religious institutions was evil. I suggest (if you haven't allready) that you go out and read some philosophy on the subject of faith and puropse, existentialism etc. Sartre, Camus are good starting points. They are too often just French intellectuals grinding frivilous points about the dark meaninglessness of existence but it can help you get a lay of the land so to speak.

What would you being studying in University then? You sound quite interesting. I only am aware of basic philosophies and ethical systems. I admire Durkheim, Marx and Eliade and Humanism which emphasizes reason is my preferred ethical system. Durkheim and Marx emphasize the fact that religion bonds and brings together society basically, which is essential to order and regulation. I love reading up on these philosophers, they are fascinating. I am not so interested in theologians however.
BTW I hope to follow a most profane pathway of engineering when I complete my final year of school.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I can respect other people's views IF they respect mine and everyone else's, but this person obviously doesn't. He thinks he has all the answers and everyone else is stupid, and that is presumptuous, rude and illogical. I've heard people who go to various different churches say that they are right and everyone else is wrong/stupid/going to hell and that is bad too. We can all believe what we want, but it isn't nice to diss anyone else's views. And if he has proof that God doesn't exist, he must be privvy to some information no one else has, because no one has ever been able to prove or disprove his existence since the beginning of time.

Have you read my other posts? Initally I tried to make out that I was writing a purely informed opinion, not that everything you guys say is bullshit! I may or may not have made that clear. I'm trying to listen to everything you guys are trying to say, and it seems you are somewhat hypocritical by not reading mine. I am fully respecting everything everyone is saying, not writing them off as bullshit! I am definately not saying that I am completely right and I have all the answers. In my first post I was giving everything said in the form of an opinion. Sorry if you took me the wrong way.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I am doing science, good bit of maths/physics and biology and going along to major in geology. See most engineers have the unfortunate fact of being unable to complete a coherant sentence, not to mention the ratio of the sexes. Now science, whole different ball game, you have the solid concepts only rather than looking at material stress on a bridge its like the electron degeneracy pressure of an imploding star. And there are also better ratios, I abhor those damn arts students, for all their newfound "knowledge" most are latte socialists and postmodern fools.

I myself have been engrossed with the foundations of liberalism when it comes to philosophys. I have a profound loathing of authoritarianism and despotism.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

Sorry? I thought we were allowed to use our own judgement. God creates everyone with free will. It is up to us to use our judgement to follow a good life. I read somewhere once that evil existed because of people using their free choice to disobey god and follow a deceitful life.

But if we fully follow a Christian tradition, aren't we really using reason? Sure we may be partially using our judgement though life, but ultimately any action should boil down to his rules doesn't it? He (you people think) gave us irreducable rules in the form of the Bible, 10 commandments, numerous doctrines etc. which must be followed no questions asked. Shouldn't moral and ethical decisions be based using no reference to a superior moral governor?(God) Shouldn't we look to the common humanity and goodness found in ourselves in order to make a decision? That, my friend, is true reason. Although I don't actually practice humanism, I certainly adore it's theories.

 

[A_Wanderer]

But reason and religion are irreconcilable, reason and humanity are pretty hard to get together in any case.

 

[Laura M]

Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

But if we fully follow a Christian tradition, aren't we really using reason? Sure we may be partially using our judgement though life, but ultimately any action should boil down to his rules doesn't it? He (you people think) gave us irreducable rules in the form of the Bible, 10 commandments, numerous doctrines etc. Shouldn't moral and ethical decisions be based using no reference to a superior moral governor?(God) Shouldn't we look to the common humanity and goodness found in ourselves in order to make a decision? That, my friend, is true reason.

Why the "you people think"? I haven't said what my religous beliefs are. Don't assume I believe we have to listen to everything God has told us in the bible, 10 commandments etc because I don't. The opinions I have on certain moral and ethical topics aren't based on the word of God. They are based on what I believe is right. I am not a very religous person. I haven't been to church in 8 years. I feel that I am still a good person. regardless of whether or not I belive if God exists the teachings of the bible or the 10 commandments should be put into practice by folk more. There is nothing wrong with trying to be a better person.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

But reason and religion are irreconcilable, reason and humanity are pretty hard to get together in any case.

Sure reason and religion are incompatible, I agree.
And humanity and reason can be a somewhat dangerous combination. I'm not saying that if we all use reason instead of obeying a supreme moral goverenor, we would all be living in harmony. However, I believe that the conflict between religions would be more dangerous than reason based on humanity.