Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

[AussieU2fanman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

OK, so you're critiquing CATHOLOCISM, not Christianity in general. You should've made that more clear.

Catholicism is just a sect of basic Christianity, either of them I can refer to, it's not really relevant. The subtle differences hold no change in basis for any arguments.

 

[Liesje]

Yes but it appears you've only studied Catholocism at great length and are extrapolating that information across all of Christianity. If you're going to make claims about who Jesus was, who God is/isn't, etc, then you at the very least need to understand that every single sect of Christianity has an entirely different way of understanding these concepts. I think for you to just throw them all out at once is pretty immature. Honestly, I don't like Catholocism either, but there are other ways of understanding sin, free will, original sin, Jesus, God, etc that I've found much easier to accept and truly believe. I think it's kinda sad that you're just giving up

 

[nbcrusader]

Catholicism is just a sect of basic Christianity, either of them I can refer to, it's not really relevant. The subtle differences hold no change in basis for any arguments.

I've stayed out of this for a while. Based on this comment, I am not sure you have a deep, meaningful understanding of Christian doctrine and the difference between Catholicism, Protestantism or Christianity.

If you would like to discuss theology, I'd suggest doing so one doctrine at a time.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all yo

I'm sorry, but that's the most blissfully ignorant thing I've read in a LONG time!

Not all forms of society, if that's what you are implying. Christian society. If you meant Christian society, it seems you know absolutely nothing of Christianity if you can't agree with that incredibly basic fact. LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR? Christianity built a highly cohesive society of its followers. Just what do you think Christianity is like today? It is a very closely held community that unites Christians of every type of description (black, asian, etc.) I have several books on why Christianity was so successful as a result of its ability to unite and bond its own society, in order to relieve YOUR ignorance.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

I've stayed out of this for a while. Based on this comment, I am not sure you have a deep, meaningful understanding of Christian doctrine and the difference between Catholicism, Protestantism or Christianity.

If you would like to discuss theology, I'd suggest doing so one doctrine at a time.

The various sects of Christianity are fundamentally similar. They are obviously different in their own right, but not so radically different as to change any arguments? I think I may be wrong in that the theories of Original sin may be different? If I am, please tell me, but the key concepts should hold for all sects.

 

[nbcrusader]

Pick your topic and let's open the Bible.

 

[Liesje]

Oh, so now you think you know everything about everyone else's faith b/c you went to a Catholic church for 17 years and read a few books on the subject matter?

You really need to be more clear in your posts. Half the time I'm left going

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Oh, so now you think you know everything about everyone else's faith b/c you went to a Catholic church for 17 years and read a few books on the subject matter?

You really need to be more clear in your posts. Half the time I'm left going

I know nothing about anyone's faith, it's entirely personal. If you are talking about the sects again, I may be wrong with where I discussed orignal sin and classifying it as a generally Christian teaching. If I was just referring to Catholicism, never mind. (I can't remember and this thread has become pretty long.)

 

[U2Kitten]

No I don't believe that there is a supreme governor, but I will not publically say that Hindu\Muslim teachings are void, I know nothing of them. From what I personally believe, there is no supreme being at all, but I won't condemn any other religions. I am using Christianity as an example.

Muslim beliefs are based on strong belief in "Allah", "Allah" = God, therefore, if you don't believe in God you don't believe that religion either. Hindus believe in Karma and reincarnation. If there is no supreme power in the universe, no afterlife, no souls, how can there be reincarnation? See what I mean, if you denounce the existence of God as a supreme power you cannot give any other religion the benefit of the doubt either. It does piss me off you are ONLY attacking one religion here. If you were to disregard ALL religions based on your disbelief in a supreme power, that would be understandable. But to single out only ONE religion to pick on looks like you have a vendetta against it and all who believe it.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Muslim beliefs are based on strong belief in "Allah", "Allah" = God, therefore, if you don't believe in God you don't believe that religion either. Hindus believe in Karma and reincarnation. If there is no supreme power in the universe, no afterlife, no souls, how can there be reincarnation? See what I mean, if you denounce the existence of God as a supreme power you cannot give any other religion the benefit of the doubt either. It does piss me off you are ONLY attacking one religion here. If you were to disregard ALL religions based on your disbelief in a supreme power, that would be understandable. But to single out only ONE religion to pick on looks like you have a vendetta against it and all who believe it.

No, I don't believe that there is a supreme being at all. I don't believe that there is a God called Allah in the Islamic faith, or Buddah in the Hindu faith. But I cannot condemn anything these other religions say because I know nothing of them. What I am saying is that because I believe that there is no God at all, I don't believe in any God of any religion, but I can only use examples from which I know of (Christianity). I am also debating several of the other Christian teachings, not just the existance of their God. That was my last post, I'm really tired and have soccer in the morning. I hope this made some sort of sense, I'll try to explain it again later if I didn't explain it properly.

 

[iacrobat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

Catholicism is just a sect of basic Christianity, either of them I can refer to, it's not really relevant. The subtle differences hold no change in basis for any arguments.

NBcrusader and Bootleg are right, if this is what you think, then you have a long way to go. This is what I have been trying to convey, that it is not all the same. You are making blanket statements which do not apply to all of Christianity.

The Catholic hierarchy, which you place som much importance in, is essentially meaningless for Protestants and Orthodox believers.

This is where I bow out.

 

[sharon]

I didn't read past the first sentence either, obviously he/she is looking for argument.

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Ch

This is what I have been trying to convey, that it is not all the same. You are making blanket statements which do not apply to all of Christianity.

The Catholic hierarchy, which you place so much importance in, is essentially meaningless for Protestants and Orthodox believers.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[pax]

Buddha is not a deity for Buddhists--he is a human being who achieved enlightenment and is honored as a great role model for living, but not a deity.

Anyway, this thread is getting a lit-tle testy. It's been a week or so since I closed a thread and my fingers are itchy...

 

[nbcrusader]

I would suggest closing so Aussie can raise specific issues for discussion.

 

[U2Kitten]

Buddha is not a deity for Buddhists--he is a human being who achieved enlightenment and is honored as a great role model for living, but not a deity.

and he's certainly not a deity in the Hindu religion as Aussie man stated here:

or Buddah in the Hindu faith.

But I cannot condemn anything these other religions say because I know nothing of them.

So you admit you are condemning Christianity? If you do not believe in any God, afterlife or Supreme being/power at all, that should cover every religion and not just one.

 

[namkcuR]

I have to say...I pretty much agree with Aussie on this and I think a lot of you are being rather hard on him.

I don't believe in any religion, or even IN religion period. I just look at the world today, all the terrorism and crime, and I thnk to myself, more people in this world die in the name of God(whichever God that may be) than for any other single reason. I don't believe in creationism, it just doesn't make any sense to me, while evolution seems logical to me. And the idea of Mary just becoming pregnant is not believable either to me. I know, that's why it's faith, but I just don't have it.

I also feel like religion is starting to become just one big system of cliques, kind of like in high school. Except that in high school if you choose not be part of a clique no one really cares all that much. If people get upset enough with you for not believing in a certain thing, you could die. For no reason. I just feel like, especially with Christianity and to an extent Judiasm, the official parts of it, churches and stuff, and the most devout believers, put forth the ridiculous notion that if you don't believe in this and that you're going to hell and this is the only 'right' way to live etc etc, and when people start doing and saying these things, religion starts becoming something you do to please other people, to fit in, and even though I don't believe in religion, I believe one thing for those that do believe in it: It MUST be something you do and believe in for yourself, and only yourself. Because when you die, no God is going to judge your life. You yourself will be the harshest critic of your life. Regardless of what zealots will say.

What it boils down to is that I honestly believe that religion does more bad than good in this world, and I will never ever ever believe in any religion, because more people die for God than for any other reason, and because all too often, religious people compromise common sense and logic in the name of their religion, and sometimes it leads to them doing things are just plan perplexing and not understandable.

A lot of this spills into my political beliefs as well...I fully support stem cell research and am pro-choice, as I'm sure most Christians would disagree with completely.

Just to clarify, I don't exactly consider myself an athiest either...I just tend to see athiesm as a religion based in the non-belief of religion and that makes little sense to me sometimes. But I believe in no religion. The only things I believe in are more spiritual things that have nothing to do with religion, for example: there's a reason for everything, there's a master plan, there's nothing you can do that you're not meant to do, nothing you can say that you're not meant to say, etc etc. And I believe that when you die, your soul goes and merges itself with all the other souls that have ever been alive, so that there is one big cesspool of soul/existance, and whenever a new baby is born, a new soul is molded from the cesspool and given to the child.

Anyway, yeah, I don't believe in religion.

 

[indra]

Anyway, this thread is getting a lit-tle testy. It's been a week or so since I closed a thread and my fingers are itchy...

I don't see where a little testy is a reason to close a thread. If left to run it will work itself out, and perhaps people will learn to think a bit more BEFORE they post instead of just shoot off their...well...fingers. By closing it so quickly it just encourages halfcocked responses, as well thought out ones never get to be posted.

For instance, I want to reply to posts in the last half of the thread, but want to give it more thought (instead of a merely reactionary post). If it's closed...poof! opportunity gone. So the next time I'll just shoot off my mouth...cause it's gonna be closed anyway.

I know, I know, I know...doesn't matter one bit what I think, but I'm opinionated.

 

[U2Kitten]

namkur- it wasn't his position itself but the way he presented it, starting with the title.

 

[ThatGuy]

namkur- it wasn't his position itself but the way he presented it, starting with the title.

 

[beli]

I just tend to see athiesm as a religion based in the non-belief of religion and that makes little sense to me sometimes.

Athiest = no god

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is no moral nor ethical code involved with being solely an Atheist.

There is also no moral nor ethical code involved with being a Theist.

There is no way Atheism can be a religion.

 

[beli]

I do agree with the gist of Aussies comments but not the tone and the language.

Aussie, I believe (lol) that you are feeling under attack because other people in this thread are feeling under attack by yourself.

I agree with NBC (whoa, theres a statement ). Maybe if we choose one issue at a time and we all work through it together.

We could start with relics, if you like, as that, if Im reading you correctly, appears to be of concern.

 

[ThatGuy]

Athiest = no god

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is no moral nor ethical code involved with being solely an Atheist.

There is also no moral nor ethical code involved with being a Theist.

There is no way Atheism can be a religion.

I can see namkcuR's point, though. In quite a few of AussieU2fanman's posts early in this thread I found his arguments and style to be very similar to that of some fervent Christians (especially those who have been born again recently) that I've met. And while I agree that religion is a framework of morals and ehtical laws, at its core it is the belief that your way and your way only is the correct way to live (at least in regards to a diety/dieties). I think that fervent religiosity and fervent atheism are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Liesje]

I think everyone has their own religion whether or not it's based on a god. One of the wisest teachers I've ever had taught us to define religion based on the first question of the Heidelberg Catechism: What is your only comfort in life and in death? Whatever your answer is, that is your religion. Obviously, for Christians the answer is Christ. But still, everyone has an answer to that question, even if the answer is themselves, so everyone has a religion. Therefore, atheism is not really a religion, it's just not believing in a God, but each atheist still has a religion. Am I making any sense?

 

[beli]

There are people who leave their religion in such a state of anger that they turn their denial of religion into a religion.

Atheism doesnt have anything to do with religion the same way Theism doesnt.

A person can believe in Jesus, God etc and not be interested/agrere with any forms of Christianity that has been built around that particular God. That person is a Theist but not religious.

A Christian is a religious Theist.

There is no religion associated with Athiesm. A person can be a religious Atheist (eg Budhists) or an Irreligous Atheist.

The term Atheist means diddly squat in determining a persons core values.

 

[ThatGuy]

There are people who leave their religion in such a state of anger that they turn their denial of religion into a religion.

That's really what I was speaking to in my post, though I don't think that attitude is reserved solely for those who leave another religion.

I'm agnostic and somewhat anti-religion, by the way, just so you know where I'm coming from.

 

[U2democrat]

Let me throw some more meat in here...what about agnostics? I know someone who is an agnostic. The way he puts it is that he doesn't believe in God, but is open to the fact that their may be a God.

 

[U2democrat]

Looks like i posted that 2 seconds too late!!!!

 

[beli]

That's really what I was speaking to in my post, though I don't think that attitude is reserved solely for those who leave another religion.

Pleased to be explaing this? Im not quite following what you are saying.

 

[beli]

Agnostics dont have a code of conduct, purely an opinion on God(s).

Religion and God(s) can be quite separate things.

The gist of this thread is about the ins and outs of religion eg the Christian church lieing, physical relics etc. These topics have nothing to do with God(s)

Well thats how I read it anyway.